Let’s not forget that Israel’s bombing of Iran’s embassy in Syria was an act of war as well. Needs to also be counted in the endless, stupid game called “tit for tat”
Perhaps bringing this shadow war into the open offers an opportunity for meaningful, substantive change. Netanyahu and the far right Messianic Zionists who are part of the Israeli government may now be successfully challenged, by the Israeli people. The majority of Israelis might support a two-state solution.
Beyond that agreement, an eventual Palestinian state has become inevitable. True, a century ago, "Palestinians" meant Jews, not Arabs; but Palestinian Arabs do today constitute a people. Pretending otherwise smacks of futility. True also that reestablishing Jordanian and Egyptian rule in the West Bank and Gaza from 60 years ago is a more attractive alternative than a two-state solution; but both Amman and Cairo vehemently rebuff this idea. Israel ruling all of those territories protracts one of the world's most vicious and lengthy conflicts. So, Palestine it is.
But what sort of Palestine? There lies the second area of agreement between Washington and Jerusalem. Each accepted it on condition of a complete overhaul of Palestinian conduct. Each posited three prerequisites. Bush offered "American support for the creation of a provisional state of Palestine ... if Palestinians embrace democracy, confront corruption and firmly reject terror." Netanyahu itemized Israel's conditions as a "guarantee regarding demilitarization and Israel's security needs," plus recognition of Israel "as the State of the Jewish people."
Together, these demands – which remain as central today as when first expressed – require a transformation of Palestinian attitudes and actions. (Still, they remain partial and other demands should be added; an end to PA vilification of Israel, recognition of Jerusalem as its capital, and a full normalization of relations.)
Unfortunately, those six conditions have virtually disappeared from the collective memory. Forgetting them, the United States and Israel engage in a useless "yes or no to Palestine?" argument. With them, the two governments can engage in a pragmatic and constructive "has the PA met the prerequisites?" discussion.
The PA, which turns 30 next month, has an extensive record on which to be judged. Here's a summary assessment on each of those six U.S.-Israeli requirements:
Establish democracy: PA leader Mahmoud Abbas is in the 20th year of his 4-year term and spurns even the rigged elections typical of tyrants pretending to be democratic.
Reduce corruption: Ghaith al-Omari, a former advisor to Abbas, finds that "a staggering 87 percent of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza believe that the PA is corrupt."
Reject terror: The PA brazenly celebrates the murder of Israelis. For example, a televised sermon declared that "All weapons must be aimed at the Jews." It also bragged about its role on Oct. 7.
Demilitarize: The PA has over 83,000 security personnel on which it spends one-third of its budget, making it (along with Hamas) the most militarized society in the world. (Only North Korea matches that percentage.)
Guarantee Israel's security needs: The PA last year endorsed an intent "to blow up all of the Zionist entity's cities."
Recognize Israel as the Jewish state: Abbas adamantly rejects this, taunting Israelis: "You can call yourselves whatever you want, but I will not accept it."
As the PA fails every joint-U.S.-Israel condition, Washington and Jerusalem have their work cut out. Time to end their useless squabble and focus on getting Abbas and his regime to fulfill those common-sense requirements, for example by reducing the PA's hyper-militarization. Accordingly, some humble advice to each government. [More]
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I seriously wonder if you and other online pundits are taking account of the Palestinian equivalent of the "far right Messianic Zionists" among the Palestinians, that would seem to deserve some attention too, correct? The "far right Islamo-fascists," so to speak? Hamas, Islamic Jihad in Palestine, and elements of the Palestinian Authority - Fatah?
“I seriously wonder if you and other online pundits …”. — I’m not a pundit whatsoever on this topic. I found his post interesting and was curious what others thought and joined a conversation. Nothing in what I posted indicated that my intention was to speak with authority on a topic of which I have expertise. I have not kept up with the decades long conflict.
Thank you for sharing the info about the Palestinian Authority (PA). I wondered about them, and why they were in the West Bank and Hamas was in Gaza.
To your question of whether “the Palestinian equivalent of the ‘far right Messianic Zionists’ among the Palestinians …” should also be taken into account, my answer is of course. This mutual destruction dynamic that they have going on creates instability for the entire world. Medhi used the term “Messianic” and it was new to me; I used it because he named specific people in government and he know more than I do about that situation. If it’s incorrect, please advise.
Mehdi Hassan, ok, I started reading him fifteen years ago when he wrote for the Guardian, he's erratic as hell, unreliable but this entire ONLINE conflict amounts to "battling experts and pundits," I have no idea why you think I singled you out as a "pundit," anyway, there have been waves of conquest of what is now Palestine and Israel, the Arab Muslim invasion was part of a massive seizure of lands across the Middle East, Egypt, and North Africa, reaching as far as Sicily, Spain, and finally halted in what is now France, then it took hundreds of years to roll back the Islamic invaders. This is more of the same, I just don't support the actual terrorists - and that's the terrorist state of Hamas in Gaza, the terrorist state in Iran, but the Palestinian Authority is not on that level.
There DOES need to be a "two-state solution," sure! But not with one run by terrorists who can't be voted out of power! That's a crucial difference, Israel can vote the ultra-fanatics OUT, not so, yet, in Gaza and Iran. Btw those Iranian missile strikes were intended to kill tens of thousands of Israelis, could have succeeded but for the US, UK, France, Jordanian and Saudi and Kuwaiti cooperation - also intended to terrorize their own population within Iran, "We really are determined to murder en masse, we will murder you heretics and rebels against Allah, too!" etc. etc.
Mehdi Hasan
January 28, 2024
MSNBC: Four Months of Disinformation
Common distortions include omitting the 2005 disengagement from Gaza and the subsequent election of a group sworn to Israel's destruction to power in the territory, promoting anti-Israel propagandists, and ignoring the numbers of casualties that are reported to be Hamas fighters. In addition, at least two commentators called on the US to force Israel essentially to surrender.
June 7, 2023
Mehdi Hasan’s Deceitful Defense of an Antisemitic Screed
Both Mehdi Hasan and Fatima Mohammed are entitled to their opinions and their free expression. It would just be nice if their speech came with a little less anti-Jewish demagoguery and with a lot more factual accuracy.
December 7, 2022
As Antisemitism Surges, Mehdi Hasan Guest Blames Jews
The Mehdi Hasan Show reached a new low when one of Mehdi’s guests argued that Jews promote antisemitism to advance “Israeli Zionist ideology.”
October 17, 2022
For Mehdi Hasan, Two Antisemitic Wrongs Make Ilhan Omar Right
Hasan’s lame attempts to cast Omar’s repeated employment of classic antisemitic tropes as merely “criticism of Israel,” alongside his constant efforts to politicize antisemitism, serve as a reminder that bigotry, including antisemitism, must be combatted because it is morally reprehensible, not because it is politically convenient.
Not quite sure where you got "Palestinians" meant Jews, not Arabs; but Palestinian Arabs do today constitute a people? because the history tells a different story: Palestine's ancient history spans thousands of years, with its crossroads location witnessing the rise and fall of empires, shaping world history. The Canaanites, Israelites, Semitics, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, and Byzantines all left their mark on the land. In addition to its historical significance, Palestine holds profound religious importance for Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Sacred sites such as the Western Wall, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and the Al-Aqsa Mosque draw countless pilgrims and visitors each year. Throughout history, the region has seen periods of coexistence and conflict between different religious and ethnic groups. Notably, during the Middle Ages, when Jewish communities faced persecution, they found refuge and protection under Muslim rule in Palestine and the wider Islamic world. The Ottoman Empire, which controlled Palestine from the 16th century until its collapse at the end of World War I, provided a sanctuary for Jews fleeing persecution in Europe. The end of the Ottoman rule marked a new chapter in Palestine's history. Following World War I, the British Empire assumed control of the region under the League of Nations mandate. The British Mandate for Palestine, established in 1920, brought significant changes to the political and social landscape of the area, setting the stage for the conflicts and struggles that would follow. (Wiki) The other part you mention: " Bush offered "American support for the creation of a provisional state of Palestine ... if Palestinians embrace democracy, confront corruption and firmly reject terror." Which would of course be nice, however neither this here US is very good at confronting corruption, if you take one look at our SCOTUS among multiple other corrupted elements of our judiciary and elected officials. Besides that, Netanyahu's clinging to power by expanding the war that already killed 30+ thousand civilians, serves only one purpose: not to face the consequences of his own corruption. Also please consider this: after the Oslo accords Rabin was assassinated and the followup were aggressive new settlements on the West Bank, which continue today: Oslo (1993-2001)
Yitzhak Rabin, Bill Clinton, and Yasser Arafat at the Oslo Accords signing ceremony on 13 September 1993
Main article: Oslo Accords
While the slow moving Madrid talks were taking place, a series of secret meetings between Israeli and Palestinian negotiators were taking place in Oslo, Norway, which resulted in the 1993 Oslo Peace Accords between Palestinians and Israel, a plan discussing the necessary elements and conditions for a future Palestinian state "on the basis of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338".[44] The agreement, officially titled the Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements (DOP), was signed on the White House lawn on 13 September 1993.
Various "transfers of power and responsibilities" in the Gaza Strip and West Bank from Israel to the Palestinians took place in the mid-1990s.[45] The Palestinians achieved self-governance of major cities in the West Bank and the entire Gaza Strip. Israel maintained and continues to maintain a presence in the West Bank for security reasons. In 2013 Israel still had control of 61% of the West Bank, while the Palestinians had control of civic functions for most of the Palestinian population. You might also take the death toll into account of both sides as far as numbers go: Oslo (1993-2001) Yitzhak Rabin, Bill Clinton, and Yasser Arafat at the Oslo Accords signing ceremony on 13 September 1993 Main article: Oslo Accords While the slow moving Madrid talks were taking place, a series of secret meetings between Israeli and Palestinian negotiators were taking place in Oslo, Norway, which resulted in the 1993 Oslo Peace Accords between Palestinians and Israel, a plan discussing the necessary elements and conditions for a future Palestinian state "on the basis of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338".[44] The agreement, officially titled the Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements (DOP), was signed on the White House lawn on 13 September 1993. Various "transfers of power and responsibilities" in the Gaza Strip and West Bank from Israel to the Palestinians took place in the mid-1990s.[45] The Palestinians achieved self-governance of major cities in the West Bank and the entire Gaza Strip. Israel maintained and continues to maintain a presence in the West Bank for security reasons. In 2013 Israel still had control of 61% of the West Bank, while the Palestinians had control of civic functions for most of the Palestinian population.
Wait - I just noticed you managed to completely omit the Gaza coup in 2006-2007, seventeen YEARS ago, that installed the internationally designated Hamas terrorists in power, what's that about?
You're confusing semi-legitimate authorities with completely bogus, terrorist outfits, as if Israel would agree to having the latter as a "partner for peace," you might as well expect Canada to agree to let Putin seize British Columbia or some territories in the Yukon!
The level of wishful thinking surrounding this is amazing - "we" ALL want some peaceful resolutions, true, but argue and disagree to various degrees about how to do that, but Hamas and Putin would gleefully see respectively all Israelis or Ukrainians killed in mass graves (Russians began that in February-March, 2022, Hamas just months ago in Israel at a freakin' music festival) - it's asymmetrical. Cannot ignore that, ever, or at least until the Gazans, Palestinians, Iranians, and Russians cast out their theocratically psycho-sexually repressed authoritarian oppressors, anyway.
And why on EARTH you recapitulate material I studied in my Ancient History course (Herodotus, Pausanias, Thucydides, Tacitus, etc. etc. ) at Macalester and before that even in the old H.G. Wells "History of the World," as a young teenager, and other courses at the U, is a mystery, sonny. As is the rest of that material - including the "Big Lie" you repeat, that Israel's casualty count in Gaza is "30 + thousand "civilians," really?* What's your source for the crackpot idea that NONE of the Hamas terrorists were killed?!
Again: NONE of this is new to me, it alters nothing in what I posted, either: the "apartheid smear" is exactly that, the Genocide smear, ditto, the fact is that there's still no elections scheduled in Gaza and the West Bank to even provide a credible partner for peace, either.
"Israel’s Channel 13 recently published a report by its Arab affairs correspondent Hezi Simantov concerning Hamas documents publicised by the IDF’s Arabic language spokesman. [translation: CAMERA UK]
“In an internal intelligence document of the military wing of Hamas from 2020, it was revealed that the terrorist organisation is aware of the high percentage of failed launches by the Islamic Jihad and the danger they pose to houses near launch sites and that it even approached the PIJ with a request not to place launchers near Hamas operatives so as not to endanger them.
Another document from the year 2022, belonging to the Hamas military coordination department, describes how the PIJ’s Jerusalem brigades, which carried out a failed launch that caused casualties during Operation Breaking Dawn, hid the matter and suggested presenting the incident as the fall of an Iron Dome interceptor in order to blame Israel. […]
The IDF put its hands on many additional documents that show how aware the terrorist organisations are of the results of the failed launches, but the method of operation is clear – to hide the information and blame Israel.
The IDF spokesman added that also in the current war a significant percentage of failed launches carried out by Hamas and Islamic Jihad have been recorded. According to the data, about 11% of the launches carried out by the terrorist organisations against Israel since October 7 fell in the territory of the Gaza Strip.” {MORE}
neither am I a fan of islamist doctrine, Hamas or Iran’s leadership. Neither am I a fan of nationalistic authoritarians wherever you find them. Thanks for pointing out your extensive understanding of history, but whatever Palestine was, it was never a “jewish state” until 1948. People have been living there, jews, moslem arabs, christians wether orthodox or otherwise. How many of the 30+ thousand civilians killed were hamas? What do you know? Obviously, it takes 2 to tango. One sided assessments rarely reflect reality as it unfolds. Maybe think of what it feels like if the shoe is on the other foot? Just maybe? I have quite a few jewish friend, some Israeli and what I hear is they’re fucking sick of this shit because violence mostly begets more violence. No? War crimes are war crimes, no matter who committed them. No? Also settler’s annexation of real estate and ongoing murder of homeowners should be at least mentioned in this equation. Don’t you think? Seems international law, human rights and the right not to have no rights doesn’t matter much to you. Besides that, you seem to ignore other points made above: is Netanyahu not corrupt? Is the US confronting corruption efficiently?
Wait, hold on - you just abolished several thousand years of history and blithely continue on your merry way (I will get to your equally casual "how many were Hamas terrorists of the 33 + thousand" rhetorical question, posed AS IF IT DOESN'T MATTER IN A WAR, in a moment!) https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/timeline-of-ancient-israelite-religion-2000-539-bce
Timeline of Jewish History
3800 B.CE - 2001 BCE - The Dawn of “History”
2000 B.C.E. - 587 BCE - Context of Ancient Israelite Religion
538 BCE - 70 CE - Judaism After the Babylonian Exile
230 BCE-400 CE - Rule of Rome
70 - 500 - Rabbinic Jewish Period of Talmud Development
325 - 590 - Consolidation & Dominance of Classical Christianity
600 - 1500 - “Medieval” Period in the West
570 - 1258 - Reception & Classical Development of Muhammad's Islamic Message
1095-1258 - Crusades
1258-1500 - Further Transitions and Rebuilding of Political Islam
1291-1516 - Mamluk Rule
1517-1569 - Reformation and Post-Reformation Christian Period
1500-1920 - Dominance of Ottoman Muslim Empire in Turkey
1700-1917 - Jewish Modern and Contemporary Periods
1914-1918 - Islamic Unrest and Realignment in the Middle East
1918-1947 - British Rule in Palestine
1947-Present - Modern Israel & the Diaspora
^^^^^^^ Nota bene: This is a very brief summary of the dates, but it does indicate how ludicrous the claim is that "whatever Palestine was, it was never a “jewish state” until 1948."
Now when I read some online bilge like that, what am I supposed to conclude, that the bilge-poster is an astute, careful student of these thousands of years of history, or might as well have "just fallen off the turnip truck,"
Then you end simply launching a whole slew of mindless accusations:
"Seems international law, human rights and the right not to have no rights doesn’t matter much to you." ??? How on earth do you reach the conclusion that because I (A) Condemn the Hamas terrorist state and (2)Point out that as of now, there IS no credible Palestinian leadership to run a Palestinian state alongside Israel, that none of that "matters to me"? I mean, come ON, that's exactly what I value most, and exposing inane lies like the "apartheid" smear and the "genocide" smear are part and parcel of establishing a way forward!
You mention some settlements being built in the Occupied West Bank, ok, other settlements have also been BULLDOZED BY THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, and all of them without any exceptions, are subject to the peace negotiations' classic formula, "Land for Peace"!
Settlers killing people, really? What was was going on with that, could it have anything to do with reprisals for THIS, a long summary list of terror attacks?
And you can surely figure out why the Hamas terrorist deaths are part and parcel of the overall conflation of all other (civilian) deaths in Gaza, from October 8 2023, to April 2024!
LOL, of COURSE Netanyahu is corrupt and needs to go, how does that help your case in any significant respect when it comes to the Hamas terrorist state (a paradigm case of corruption and avowed genocidal fanaticism in itself!) or Palestinian Authority corruption? It doesn't,. that's the truth.
Anyway being on the possible verge of World War 3 as instigated at last by the mad mullahs of Iran, I would think you want to seek a path to peace, which in this case, amounts to deterring further Iranian aggression against Israel via their proxies and from Iran itself, but maybe you have other preferences, who knows.
"Designated as a State Sponsor of Terrorism in 1984, Iran continued its support for terrorist-related activity in 2021, including support for Hizballah, Palestinian terrorist groups in Gaza, and various terrorist and militant groups in Iraq, Syria, Bahrain, and elsewhere throughout the Middle East."
The latest US annual Terrorism Report reiterated that Iran “continued its extensive support for terrorism,” providing funding, training and weapons to militant groups.
The 2023 report issued on November 30, covered the situation in 2022 and declared in its introduction to country reports that “Iran continued to be the leading state sponsor of terrorism, facilitating a wide range of terrorist and other illicit activities around the world.”
The year the report covered coincided with extensive indirect negotiations between Washington and Tehran on Iran’s expanding nuclear program and increasing uranium enrichment. By the end of 2022, a new nuclear deal remained elusive, but the Islamic Republic had stockpiled enough fissile material to build at least three nuclear weapons.
However, while holding talks on the nuclear issue, Iran continued its political and material support for its vast network of militant proxy groups in the region, that were targeting US forces in Iraq and Syria.
Yes, the tit-for-tat shadow war of proxy strikes by Iran and open assassinations of military leaders and scientists by Israel (with US connivance) was bound to spiral out of control at some point, esp. with a hothead like Netanyahu always seeking a way to attack Iran and draw in the US.
LOL, "military leaders and scientists," - leaders in terrorizing, torturing, raping, imprisoning, executing Iranian women and dissenters, you mean those "military leaders"?
The Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC; Persian: سپاه پاسداران انقلاب اسلامی Sepāh-e Pāsdārān-e Enqelâb-e Eslâmī, lit. 'Army of Guardians of the Islamic Revolution'), also called Sepah or Pasdaran, is a multi-service primary branch of the Iranian Armed Forces. It was officially established by Ruhollah Khomeini as a military branch in May 1979, in the aftermath of the Iranian Revolution.[1][6] Whereas the Iranian Army protects the country's sovereignty in a traditional capacity, the IRGC's constitutional mandate is to ensure the integrity of the Islamic Republic.[7] Most interpretations of this mandate assert that it entrusts the IRGC with preventing foreign interference in Iran, thwarting coups by the traditional military, and crushing "deviant movements" that harm the ideological legacy of the Islamic Revolution.[8] Currently, the IRGC is designated as a terrorist organization by Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Sweden and the United States.[9][10]
******* And those "scientists," sure, rip that honorific out of context, why not go whole hog on the euphemisms? Lots of that went on in the prelude to U.S. official entry into WW2, might as well help muddy the waters on that one, too!
The analysis below reflects the status of Iran’s enrichment program as of February 10, 2024, the date of the latest estimates provided by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). Because Iran has reduced its cooperation with the Agency, the Agency is no longer able to precisely verify Iran's stockpile of enriched uranium at any one time. The Agency can verify uranium product that has been removed from the enrichment process, but it must rely on information provided by Iran to account for the amount that remains in-process. Because the in-process uranium represents a fraction of the total stockpile that is later verified, the estimates are suitable for use as a baseline measurement of how much enriched uranium Iran possesses. The analysis below is based on those estimates.
*******
Notice NONE of this additional information necessitates supporting the Israeli strikes to eliminate leading terrorist organizers or the nuclear programs scientists.
But it's classic, easily exposed propaganda to leave the information out.
Exactly this. I feel compelled by conscience to devil's advocacy and must ask the question "What would the U.S. government's response be if Russia or North Korea destroyed the American Consilate in Mexico, killing sixteen including two civilians?"
Cool, you can just wrench political and military events and institutions completely free of all context, and make "both sides do it" serve as a suppressed premise for the arguments!
Or more slyly, just pose it "as a question," in the true spirit of Trump himself, so you retain plausible deniability - "I didn't mean to compare the USA with dictatorships that routinely claim the dictator won a free and fair election with over 90% of the vote, has no free speech or free expression rights, no [Insert basic human rights ad libitum, ad infinitum!] and routinely imprisons or executes internal opposition - or even hunts them down and poisons them with Polonium 201 overseas - no, I just raise a question!"
The report also accused the Islamic Republic of orchestrating threats against dissidents abroad. “As in past years, the Iranian government continued supporting terrorist plots or associated activities targeting dissidents and other perceived enemies of the regime. A British intelligence agency publicly reported uncovering at least 10 potential threats emanating from Iran’s government to kidnap or kill individuals in the United Kingdom in 2022.”
Iran International television network was the target of some of these plots in 2022, and was forced to temporarily shift its broadcast operations from London to Washington DC under advisement by UK security officials.
“Regionally, Iran supported acts of terrorism in Bahrain, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, and Yemen through proxies and partner groups such as Hizballah and al-Ashtar Brigades,” the report stated, but also highlighted Iranian threats beyond the Middle East. “Globally, the IRGC-QF and the Ministry of Intelligence and Security remained Iran’s primary actors involved in supporting terrorist recruitment, financing, and plotting across Africa, Asia, Europe, and North and South America.”
Richard, you are imposing your own context, in your supposition of Vague Craig's intent. You go so far as to slam a legitimate question about Iran vs Israel, in a shady way. Craig posing a valid question isn't a Trump like approach.
Wrong, it's tendentious "cute" propaganda, irrespective of his "intent," for all I know he really IS that "vague" and careless with politicized, loaded language, but it's straight outta the Trump handbook - "I told them to go peacefully, everyone heard me, "..."fight like hell, or you won't have a country any more!" Taking each remark separately ignores the context, and that's without supplying the granular level of background detail the January 6 House investigating committee
supplied.
Once you wrench NORTH KOREA (or Russia, or Iran) out of its context of totalitarianism, sure, you can "prove," or pose as plausible , all sorts of nonsense. Gee, let's imagine how outer space aliens from Zeta Reticuli B would feel if we blew up their embassies, as if we can understand thinking that alien. Oh that's right, we have NO IDEA how hard-core totalitarians view "reality" once they're no longer actually understood within their cult thinking. You might as well start "imagining" how the thoroughly committed Westboro Baptist Church members would feel about being accused of vicious hate-mongering! You could ask them, sure, and they could explain how evil you are not to know the truth, too. *
And it isn't "MY" context, something imposed by me personally about the treatment of Israel, it's all over the the real world history of even just the months since October 7, much less taking into account the bizarrely similar accounts soon after the 9/11 World Trade Center and Pentagon bombings, attempting to "explain" Al Qaeda's motives, how they were "avenging something something history of the region something, yes the lives of the 3,461 killed mattered, but...."
Cf. "Then there is the “yes, but…” response. “Yes” Hamas started it; “Yes,” Hamas tortured and massacred Israeli civilians; “Yes” Hamas puts military infrastructure in civilian neighborhoods; “Yes” Israel is entitled to self-defense; “Yes” the Israelis warn Palestinians. “But” so many more Palestinians have been killed than Israelis.
Isn’t that the definition of “disproportionate?” No. It isn’t.
Proportionality in international law is not about equality of death or civilian suffering, or even about firepower returned being equal in sophistication or lethality to firepower received. Proportionality weighs the military necessity of an action against the suffering that the action might cause to enemy civilians in the vicinity. A review of expert opinion – none of which was written in relation to Israel – helps to clarify. And each should be read in relation to Hamas crimes against Israeli civilians." [Source -
Proportionality in international law is not about equality of death or civilian suffering, or even about firepower returned being equal in sophistication or lethality to firepower received. Proportionality weighs the military necessity of an action against the suffering that the action might cause to enemy civilians in the vicinity. A review of expert opinion – none of which was written in relation to Israel – helps to clarify. And each should be read in relation to Hamas crimes against Israeli civilians.
I grew up in the Westboro Baptist Church. Here's why I left | Megan Phelps-Roper
6,653,126 views Mar 6, 2017
What's it like to grow up within a group of people who exult in demonizing ... everyone else? Megan Phelps-Roper shares details of life inside America's most controversial church and describes how conversations on Twitter were key to her decision to leave it. In this extraordinary talk, she shares her personal experience of extreme polarization, along with some sharp ways we can learn to successfully engage across ideological lines.
It was an assassination of a terrorist master-mind for all you know, it's what Iranian "diplomats and military leaders" are infamous for doing, including murdering Israelis, so stop with the "bothsidesism" at the risk of outing yourself as a feckless apologist for the most dedicated terrorist nation-state on the planet.
And if you want to start in on the "but the US and Israel..." [something something], be my guest, the scale and intensity of whatever reprisals the US and Israel have carried out over the last 30 or 40 years pales in scope compared to Iran's instigations of said reprisals.
Shades of gray matter, we in the US / "the West" are far from perfect, especially in light of that crackpot war of choice in Iraq, true, but that hardly serves as any excuse, justification, or morally sound rationale for Iranian-sponsored murders around the world, does it?
"The report also accused the Islamic Republic of orchestrating threats against dissidents abroad. “As in past years, the Iranian government continued supporting terrorist plots or associated activities targeting dissidents and other perceived enemies of the regime. A British intelligence agency publicly reported uncovering at least 10 potential threats emanating from Iran’s government to kidnap or kill individuals in the United Kingdom in 2022.”
Iran International television network was the target of some of these plots in 2022, and was forced to temporarily shift its broadcast operations from London to Washington DC under advisement by UK security officials.
“Regionally, Iran supported acts of terrorism in Bahrain, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, and Yemen through proxies and partner groups such as Hizballah and al-Ashtar Brigades,” the report stated, but also highlighted Iranian threats beyond the Middle East. “Globally, the IRGC-QF and the Ministry of Intelligence and Security remained Iran’s primary actors involved in supporting terrorist recruitment, financing, and plotting across Africa, Asia, Europe, and North and South America.” Source:
US Report Labels Iran 'Leading State Sponsor Of Terrorism'
Saturday, 12/02/2023
Iran International Newsroom
[Volant Media manages Iran International, the first 24/7 and most popular Persian news channel which is targeted at people living in Iran and those in the Farsi speaking diaspora.]
Iran gave advance warning to Israel so they were prepared. It was, as you said, a great accomplishment. Israel’s attacked the embassy of a sovereign nation against international protocol and without advance notice to the US. I hope they stop doing stupid things. If they do, we need to stop funding the Zionists, stop foreign aid, and stop supplying munitions.
Stupid and cruel things. I wonder if our aid for Israel had been given less freely in the past would there have been less of the cruelty and stupidity.
I doubt things would have been different. The Israelis have one of the most powerful and effective lobbies in Washington. They literally bought Congress. This led to a false sense of security by that tiny nation. Hopefully, this series of events will serve to clip their wings. They have done stupid things because they knew the US had their back. I hope that ends. I am not anti-Israel, but I oppose their apartheid policies. That situation is extremely complex. Moving the embassy to Jerusalem was a major slap in the face to the Palestinians. Kushner really screwed things up in my view.
British Jewish historian Simon Schama said at the end if his series on the Jews, that post-Holocaust there needed to be a Jewish nation. But not one that treats the Palestinians as it has done. And he might add, it is still doing, now to the point of ridding itself of the Palestinians one way or the other.
That is the goal of Israel, to eliminate the entire Arab community in that territory that does not completely abide by Israeli standards. There are Arabs in Israel and as long as they toe the line, they are treated humanely. Those outside the ever moving boundaries, live in an open air prison.
I agree. Nearly half if the Jews live in the United States. There is more than one Pro-Israel lobby. I suppose each can make legal contributions, but there are more ways to compensate congressmen than legal contributions. They are extremely powerful and are probably comparable to the NRA in terms of buying favors. I agree. It is a tiny country and it is a strategic location, but we have more bases in the area. You seldom see Israel assisting the US in any conflict but they expect our full support. It is a great little country. Let them fight their own war. I regret the 10/7 tragedy, but Israel has extracted their revenge.
I think you missed the mark, here. As Michele and Peter note below, Netanyahu and Israel fired the first round, targeting an Iranian embassy. Targeting a foreign embassy is a brazen act (of war).
Thereafter, two weeks passed before Iran took action. Was Iran's action unexpected? No. It was completely anticipated. The world knew the Iranian mullahs would need to "save face" and protect their power by a taking a retributive act.
But during that two week period, I am willing to bet that there was a concerted effort among world leaders (led by President Biden) to find a way to allow Iran save face and thereafter deescalate the situation.
I'm guessing here, but the fact that 99% of the missiles and drones did not hit their intended target, leads me to believe that the Iranian missile/drone barrage was an orchestrated event. It allowed the mullahs to claim it followed through on its threat while also signaling, publicly, they would take no further action unless Israel further escalates. At the same time, it also gave all sides the opportunity to assess their weapon systems in the event a real war were to break out.
However, I believe neither Israel not Iran want an all out war. They both understand such a battle would have catastrophic consequences for their people.
Most Israelis do not support Netanyahu. He becomes PM by promising right wing religious parties to support their causes. To blame all Israelis is the same thing as blaming Americans for what Trump did.
Correct! It is an unfair statement. Israel is now equated with Netanyahu and his Likud party. The inhabitants, the Israelis, Arabs, Palestinians on the West Bank, and others, can’t stand Bibi. He has gone haywire and they do not support him nor do they trust him. He is Israel’s Trump
If Trump is elected, we can blame the Electoral College, not America as a whole. Netanyahu becomes Prime Minister because of the parliamentary system which enables him to leverage his voters' support by joining forces with right wing parties in a you scratch my back I'll scratch yours coalition. He just barely made the last time.
And yet, most Israelis have supported flattening Gaza and have been vulnerable to the propaganda coming directly from the likudniks.
Gazans are powerless. But Iran? Of course most Israelis don't support getting into a war with a country where the balance of power isn't weighted entirely on their own side.
"In the same poll, respondents were asked, “What is the best way to obtain the release of the hostages?” and 81.5 percent answered that “military pressure should be applied to Hamas so that it agrees to acceptable conditions for the release of the abductees.” This is something that Netanyahu and his military chiefs repeat every day."
I read the poll summary you cited and was surprised that you use it as a basis for your anti-Israel statements since it was fairly neutral and balanced. I personally do not particularly trust polls, but assuming it was accurate, the fact that Israelis support "military pressure" does not mean that they support "flattening Gaza." And with that, I am done responding to your toxic anti-Zionism.
When it comes to the Middle East, it's hard to tell who fired the first round, or when it was fired. Or even whether the first round was actually "fired," as opposed to, say, written down in a treaty. Either way, it didn't happen in 2024, or 2023.
"When it comes to the Middle East, it's hard to tell who fired the first round, or when it was fired. Or even whether the first round was actually "fired," as opposed to, say, written down in a treaty. Either way, it didn't happen in 2024, or 2023."
When it comes to the Middle East, it's hard to tell who fired the first round, or when it was fired. Or even whether the first round was actually "fired," as opposed to, say, written down in a treaty. Either way, it didn't happen in 2024, or 2023."
When it comes to the Middle East, it's hard to tell who fired the first round, or when it was fired. Or even whether the first round was actually "fired," as opposed to, say, written down in a treaty. Either way, it didn't happen in 2024, or 2023."
Folk should, need to read the above thrice before firing their first volley.
Now that I have:
WW3?
(1) There are 10s of 1000s of computerized WW3 triggers and responses and counter responses in the hopper.
(2) In a patriarchal society any day is a good day to begin ta war. Note: Am one who nevah evah qualifies war with nonsense, 4eg low intensity or shadow, or blah, blah, blah. War is a word much like truth. It needn't be propped up or diluted in other words.
(3) In the region alliances and allegiances shift much like the sands, that is to say by the moment. While inconceivable to most in the West due to governments being political v. the region's religious sect centric. Said another way there is no such thing as the Muslim world because the dominant sects, Shia and Sunni,lay claim to be the one and only true Muslim.
(4) The latest event involving Iran targeting Israel is to those who see war as winnable as escalatory when in truth it is simply more dick measuring. Yes, have an explicit bias against unnecessary mil jargon and how it creeps into everyday life further sucking in more and more people. Not going to address Israel's strike against Iran's diplomatic complex other than to label it a cascading event.
(5) Iran's response was stoopid and therefore damned to failure. It exposed how awful their weapons program is. Unofficial reports place the % of failed to launch or fizzled before sizzling at circa 40%. This unofficial count cries out to be publicly quantified by Western intelligence services so the world knows it.
Any mil that plans an attack knowing a high % of weapon failure is an own goal. Dunno the % of weapons stock they used, do know 99% of what they used was wasted. For a nation under sanctions with more to come Iran fits O's warning and Rule1, don't do stoopid things.
(5) Don't see Iran's few friends and allies as being pleased with such an abject failure nor pleased at the joint effort by Sunni centric, The Kingdom, UAE aka Little Sparta <sarcasm> and Jordan involved in any degree in assisting Israel, UK, and America. And must be troubled by how poorly Iran's ballistic missiles performed since they share technology.
While on paper the attack plan might sound good, the characterization needed the first and last words to be, if we get lucky. The words Iran would love to take back are as far as we are concerned, this is the end of it.
(6) At the same time Bibi et al got lucky and best acknowledge it during their internal deliberations. Just about eveything broke their way, from early intel warnings from the West, the Kingdom, and UAE, mil assistance from friends and partners, to Iranian weapon failures. And had to breathe a sigh of relief over the technology used to render the attack moot. (An overlooked tech involves fixed wing aircraft taking out drones and cruise missiles in the dead of darkness that goes far beyond night vision to what tech is now in a pilot's helmet.)
(7) Unlike the US, Israel has faced 100s if not 1000s of attacks via the land, sea, and air. Incoming sirens are not new to the general population except for the Bedouin Arab-Israelis. The theme of their mil is D-fense over offense. Simply juxtapose the 6months lingering in Gaza v. 6hours of defending against a sophisticated attack,
(8) Dunno when, where, w/what, and how Bibi et al will respond. Do know he will. Hopefully, it will be holistically and shared with the West before any active measures.
(9) The question I have is what do the Sunni Arab nations want Israel to do about Iran. Personally don't see Ru or PRC inserting themselves if the West doesn't get directly involved. There is no upside to Ru or PR (Uyghurs) , both with their own Sunni problem to actively side with a Shia nation which would also see their relatively warm relationship with Tr will go poof. They both know in these times war's underestimated destabilization (am looking at you W.) now cuts both ways.
It was meant to fail, I believe. The ayatollahs don't want a full scale war that might well end their comfortable existence at the top of the food/power chain in Iran. They had every confidence in Israel's Iron Dome and knew there were plenty of U.S. & UK ships to support it. Plus they gave all the neighborhood a heads-up to close their air space beforehand before throwing a few hundred million rials of stale old-stock drones (to deplete defenses) and then missiles, against billions of dollars of Iron Dome defensive armaments.
I'll bet Bibi is hoping very hard that Trump allows Johnson to get that aid package vote on the House floor real soon. Netanyahu has been lured into running onto another banana skin. If one looks at it from where I sit, from a non-western, Arab point of view. Their societies, social structures, languages, and thefore thought patterns differ from ours - as do east Asians, for their own similar yet unique reasons.
Agree Iran had no allusions to success other than chit-luck and the fireworks meant for domestic morale. How success is measured in these times is very subjective and dependent upon who is doing the measuring and for what purposes. Objectively all parties lost a chit load of weaponry with no actual gain to show for it.
That is one definition of dick measuring. A term that needs to be in the OED and would give run and set competition for most uses, meanings, and definitions.
lol at Bibi's banana peel. So true. He says his career as the yellow brick road when in reality it was a road of continuous banana peels. Tanx to you will never get that visual out of me-noggin', brother.
I agree with your comment. In addition, Iran notified Israel of the impending attack hours before any weapon hit. It was a symbolic act. Iran could have done more damage, but as you noted it was a face saving act. A nation does not attack the embassy of another nation unless it is the US. Israel wants a war and they want to drag the US into the conflict and I cannot tell you how much I oppose any US involvement. I am disappointed that the US participated in defense of Israel. This is their war, not ours.
I so hope you are right, Andrew, that neither Israel nor Iran want all out war. I just read former U.S. Senator Adam Kinzinger's book, "Renegade." I was struck by 2 things from his service in the U.S. Air Force:
1. How many forces and how much military equipment we have in the region, at the ready (for a saving face operation up to WWIII), and
2. The fact that the U.S. military utilizes more oil based fuels than any other entity in the world. (read about his experiences refueling jets in flight from the tanker he was piloting).
If WWIII doesn't end human existence by anhilation, it will do so through accelerated global warming.
Hopefully this game of tit for tat will "fuel" our global peace efforts instead.
You have no idea how much Palestinians hate Hamas and despise the Palestinian Authority, do you? Or how much Israelis share their loathing of Netanyahu's government?
Yet the world can't solve this set of seemingly endless wars breaking out without something like this:
"Beyond that agreement, an eventual Palestinian state has become inevitable. True, a century ago, "Palestinians" meant Jews, not Arabs; but Palestinian Arabs do today constitute a people. Pretending otherwise smacks of futility. True also that reestablishing Jordanian and Egyptian rule in the West Bank and Gaza from 60 years ago is a more attractive alternative than a two-state solution; but both Amman and Cairo vehemently rebuff this idea. Israel ruling all of those territories protracts one of the world's most vicious and lengthy conflicts. So, Palestine it is.
But what sort of Palestine? There lies the second area of agreement between Washington and Jerusalem. Each accepted it on condition of a complete overhaul of Palestinian conduct. Each posited three prerequisites. Bush offered "American support for the creation of a provisional state of Palestine ... if Palestinians embrace democracy, confront corruption and firmly reject terror." Netanyahu itemized Israel's conditions as a "guarantee regarding demilitarization and Israel's security needs," plus recognition of Israel "as the State of the Jewish people."
Together, these demands – which remain as central today as when first expressed – require a transformation of Palestinian attitudes and actions. (Still, they remain partial and other demands should be added; an end to PA vilification of Israel, recognition of Jerusalem as its capital, and a full normalization of relations.)
Unfortunately, those six conditions have virtually disappeared from the collective memory. Forgetting them, the United States and Israel engage in a useless "yes or no to Palestine?" argument. With them, the two governments can engage in a pragmatic and constructive "has the PA met the prerequisites?" discussion.
The PA, which turns 30 next month, has an extensive record on which to be judged. Here's a summary assessment on each of those six U.S.-Israeli requirements:
Establish democracy: PA leader Mahmoud Abbas is in the 20th year of his 4-year term and spurns even the rigged elections typical of tyrants pretending to be democratic.
Reduce corruption: Ghaith al-Omari, a former advisor to Abbas, finds that "a staggering 87 percent of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza believe that the PA is corrupt."
Reject terror: The PA brazenly celebrates the murder of Israelis. For example, a televised sermon declared that "All weapons must be aimed at the Jews." It also bragged about its role on Oct. 7.
Demilitarize: The PA has over 83,000 security personnel on which it spends one-third of its budget, making it (along with Hamas) the most militarized society in the world. (Only North Korea matches that percentage.)
Guarantee Israel's security needs: The PA last year endorsed an intent "to blow up all of the Zionist entity's cities."
Recognize Israel as the Jewish state: Abbas adamantly rejects this, taunting Israelis: "You can call yourselves whatever you want, but I will not accept it."
As the PA fails every joint-U.S.-Israel condition, Washington and Jerusalem have their work cut out. Time to end their useless squabble and focus on getting Abbas and his regime to fulfill those common-sense requirements, for example by reducing the PA's hyper-militarization. Accordingly, some humble advice to each government." {More}
Thank you Lucien. This is a view few have broken down so clearly with the eyes of both a reporter and West Point alumnus. You’ve described vividly what played out the night of that assault on Israel in terms of both the weapon systems and coordinated strategy that shielded a population - perhaps never so throughly before in history of modern warfare.
Any familiarity of how strategically critical this region is to every economic power in the world makes the ferocity of that defense unsurprising. You show the chess board where the pieces are interconnected in the business of power, defense of interest if not territory and hegemony. Because it’s more than an internecine conflict between religious factions or philosophy; democratic (albeit wounded by corruption and influence) government versus theocracies dressed as facsimiles of such, but about oil.
As long as oil is driving industry, commerce and necessities of daily life that keep society comfortable- we will continue to defend as the knights do the king and queen - both of which here are oil.
Did Bibi and the IDF think that Iran would not retaliate for the bombing of their embassy ??Two barbarians were killed and now Israel and the world are in danger . Insanity prevails.
Do you know what wasn’t referred to as war crimes? The terror attack on October 7. Which involves atrocities beyond belief, including rape, beheadings, burning alive. It would’ve been very helpful if it was immediately called out for what it was, many lives could’ve been saved if on October 8, the world demanded the hostages be returned, and held Hamas to account. That didn’t happen.
The more you read about this event from multiple sources the more you realize that a lot of those 'facts' are atrocity propaganda. Hamas wasn't responsible for most of it. Some Gazans yes, but not Hamas. Beheadings didn't happen. People burned alive? No. Didn't happen. Rape? I'm sure that happened. Was it Hamas? No. Gazans? Yes.
Because you are both uninformed and have an angle to push. A video compilation was put together from all of the body cams of the Hamas terrorists. It was shown to a room full of journalists. Most of them could not watch it. they were crying and throwing up. There’s a lot of eyewitness reports there’s a lot of video I’ve seen from the actual day of the terrorist attack. There’s one that stayed with me. A young woman was being dragged through the streets bleeding from between her legs. The rape has finally been acknowledged. It is fact. If you honestly believe what you said you’re ignorant, if you said it to be foul, you are foul go away
I stand by my comments. Hamas was not responsible for the atrocities you stated, some of which didn't happen at all. They are a highly disciplined force.
Did rape happen? There is film footage of something and it is likely correct . A Gazan, or Gazans, did this, for sure. It was not Hamas. The distinction is important. I nearly threw up when I saw it too, btw.
Did Hamas murder some people? Yes, brutally. No question. It's wrong and the perps should be punished, just as radical Zionist forces responsible for murderous collective punishment of innocents should be subject to punishment.
The US withholding weapons and funds from Israel to match the supposed desires of Biden, for example, would be a start.
See below:
"Once released, Porat also claimed that the Israeli government gave her a specific script of talking points that she refused to go along with."
"The complex and evolving narrative surrounding the October 7 events has raised doubts about the justifications for Israel’s brutal military response in Gaza. As the situation continues to unfold, it becomes increasingly apparent that the true story of that day may not be as straightforward as initially portrayed."
Sure, it's an act of war — but no more than the act of war when Israel first bombed the Iranian consulate in Damascus on April 1st, violating diplomatic immunity and international law, flouting its impunity. Maybe Israel wouldn't have to contend with the likes of Hamas or Hezbollah at all, had it not built dozens of illegal settlements throughout the West Bank, and blockaded Gaza? What if Israel had actually wanted peace and returned to the 1967 Green Line — borders that already granted Israel a lot more of historic Palestine than originally envisioned in the 1947 UN Partition vote, which it has often reminded the world of, as proof of its legitimacy? It's obvious to any student of colonial 19th and 20th century history that Israel is a settler colonial state, which practices apartheid against Palestinians throughout what used to be called Palestine. To the Palestinians, it's not the Israel Defense Forces, but the IOF—Israel Occupation Forces. You need to put yourselves in Palestinian shoes, as do the Irish, who lived under a brutal British occupation for hundreds of years. No wonder the Irish support Palestinian autonomy, human rights and freedom. No wonder millions of us do. If Israel wants peace, it will have to end its imperial ambitions and forget about conquering and colonizing the West Bank and Gaza. But it may be too late. The DNA of Israel is already set in stone. It seems more likely, alas, that the entire project will implode and that the region will continue to convulse in violence for another 10 to 20 years. What a shame. It doesn't have to be this way.
wow so much passion in some of the comments. cool hearts solve problems hot hearts generate them. iran has to accept the reality of a jewish state. if they do then perhaps there will be peace however the doctrine they hold presupposes the death of israel and all the israelis. as long as that is the narrative going forward we will not see peace. yes, the government of netanyahu has to go that's for sure. i don't think that the iranian people or the israeli people want war. it's easy to make a quarter turn away from the "tit for tat" it just requires political will and humility and the recognition of our humanity.
But Susan, ask yourself honestly, does it seem as if Israel has accepted the reality of Palestinians who were living there before Israel declared itself a state? Its actions suggest that it does not accept Palestinians as equal human beings. Bet Tsedek, Amnesty Int'l and Human Rights Watch have all declared Israel's treatment of and occupation over Palestinians as apartheid. Why aren't we talking about that here?
We're not talking about that because it's not the topic at hand. Also, the history and relationships here are incredibly complex, a complexity that is ignored by the left. This is not to say that Israel is perfect by any means, nor is it to defend Netenyahu and the right wing. But I would ask everyone who has a black and white view of this -- one that portrays Israel as the bad guy, full stop -- to actually read some history. A nuanced view is essential.
"Yes, the government of netanyahu has to go that's for sure." Amen. Bibi wants power. He is not interested in what is best for Israel. He even tried to eliminate the Israeli Supreme Court. He is not a rational man and is using this event to preserve his place of power.
It is because Israel is a very small country surrounded by Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. All are enriched in oil and minerals that are very desirable in creating bombs. Israel devised the Iron Dome to ensure its safety from attacks. The US provides batteries and such for the Dome to help it ward off bomb carrying drones and missiles which are aimed at Israel. Don’t forget that Israel is home to the Al Aqsa Mosque, The Western Wall, and the Dome of the Rock.
This is certainly an emotional discussion. Certain people insist on defending the Zionists. I cannot. Bibi knows more about our political system than most of our congressmen in both parties who obtain monies in various ways from Israel. I will reiterate, if the Zionists retaliate against Iran [who warned the Israelis in advance], we need to stop the flow of money to Israel, stop the Israeli apartheid policies, and stop the munitions we provide. Israel is losing face in world public opinion. They wear big girl panties and they need to fight their own wars. In response to another question, pilots and other aviators are far safer than infantrymen on the ground. The reality is, Israel's military power is far superior to Hamas and other Arab countries. They do not need us. They have 400 nukes. Cut them off. These are my personal views as are the views of those whose views that differ from mine. We have no need for pontificating hawks. We need to stop beating a dead horse.
I see we have the usual suspects on here launching the usual fact-free "apartheid," "open air prison," "Israel's lobby bought Congress" smears, probably the "genocide" smear as well.
That "open air prison" supposedly characterizing the Gaza Strip is especially weird - Hamas has run Gaza since their coup in 2006-2007! It's as if every last item in their terrorist campaign to murder and torture their internal opposition, steal humanitarian aid to build hundreds of miles of tunnels underneath all manner of civilian infrastructure, launch unguided missiles, mortars and drones at Israeli civilians - means exactly NOTHING to the people posting this drivel!
They also single out AIPAC for their legal campaign contributions, with no mention of the contributions given by the "pro-Palestinian" legal contributors, as if there is something sinister about either group donating to support candidates with whom they agree!
You never give up on this concept will give u credit for that! apartheid, YES open air prison, YES "Israel's lobby bought Congress HELL YES mears, probably the "genocide Absolutely YES... Our blind support of Israel and the MIC hawking that gear for decades is really paying dividends isn't it. Let's talk about genocide: deliberately starving, depriving of water, attempting to permanently relocate people, the intentional destruction of cultural sites ... I believe all of this has happened and is happening in Gaza over the last six months and fits the u.n. definition of genocide very closely
Let’s not forget that Israel’s bombing of Iran’s embassy in Syria was an act of war as well. Needs to also be counted in the endless, stupid game called “tit for tat”
Perhaps bringing this shadow war into the open offers an opportunity for meaningful, substantive change. Netanyahu and the far right Messianic Zionists who are part of the Israeli government may now be successfully challenged, by the Israeli people. The majority of Israelis might support a two-state solution.
A "two-state solution," sounds good - who is equipped to represent the Palestinians?
https://www.danielpipes.org/22223/my-six-step-plan-for-a-two-state-solution?utm_source=Middle+East+Forum&utm_campaign=7fdcf49781-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2024_04_04_12_38&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_086cfd423c-7fdcf49781-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D&goal=0_086cfd423c-7fdcf49781-33654329&mc_cid=7fdcf49781&mc_eid=e9890ace88
*******
Beyond that agreement, an eventual Palestinian state has become inevitable. True, a century ago, "Palestinians" meant Jews, not Arabs; but Palestinian Arabs do today constitute a people. Pretending otherwise smacks of futility. True also that reestablishing Jordanian and Egyptian rule in the West Bank and Gaza from 60 years ago is a more attractive alternative than a two-state solution; but both Amman and Cairo vehemently rebuff this idea. Israel ruling all of those territories protracts one of the world's most vicious and lengthy conflicts. So, Palestine it is.
But what sort of Palestine? There lies the second area of agreement between Washington and Jerusalem. Each accepted it on condition of a complete overhaul of Palestinian conduct. Each posited three prerequisites. Bush offered "American support for the creation of a provisional state of Palestine ... if Palestinians embrace democracy, confront corruption and firmly reject terror." Netanyahu itemized Israel's conditions as a "guarantee regarding demilitarization and Israel's security needs," plus recognition of Israel "as the State of the Jewish people."
Together, these demands – which remain as central today as when first expressed – require a transformation of Palestinian attitudes and actions. (Still, they remain partial and other demands should be added; an end to PA vilification of Israel, recognition of Jerusalem as its capital, and a full normalization of relations.)
Unfortunately, those six conditions have virtually disappeared from the collective memory. Forgetting them, the United States and Israel engage in a useless "yes or no to Palestine?" argument. With them, the two governments can engage in a pragmatic and constructive "has the PA met the prerequisites?" discussion.
The PA, which turns 30 next month, has an extensive record on which to be judged. Here's a summary assessment on each of those six U.S.-Israeli requirements:
Establish democracy: PA leader Mahmoud Abbas is in the 20th year of his 4-year term and spurns even the rigged elections typical of tyrants pretending to be democratic.
Reduce corruption: Ghaith al-Omari, a former advisor to Abbas, finds that "a staggering 87 percent of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza believe that the PA is corrupt."
Reject terror: The PA brazenly celebrates the murder of Israelis. For example, a televised sermon declared that "All weapons must be aimed at the Jews." It also bragged about its role on Oct. 7.
Demilitarize: The PA has over 83,000 security personnel on which it spends one-third of its budget, making it (along with Hamas) the most militarized society in the world. (Only North Korea matches that percentage.)
Guarantee Israel's security needs: The PA last year endorsed an intent "to blow up all of the Zionist entity's cities."
Recognize Israel as the Jewish state: Abbas adamantly rejects this, taunting Israelis: "You can call yourselves whatever you want, but I will not accept it."
As the PA fails every joint-U.S.-Israel condition, Washington and Jerusalem have their work cut out. Time to end their useless squabble and focus on getting Abbas and his regime to fulfill those common-sense requirements, for example by reducing the PA's hyper-militarization. Accordingly, some humble advice to each government. [More]
*******
I seriously wonder if you and other online pundits are taking account of the Palestinian equivalent of the "far right Messianic Zionists" among the Palestinians, that would seem to deserve some attention too, correct? The "far right Islamo-fascists," so to speak? Hamas, Islamic Jihad in Palestine, and elements of the Palestinian Authority - Fatah?
“I seriously wonder if you and other online pundits …”. — I’m not a pundit whatsoever on this topic. I found his post interesting and was curious what others thought and joined a conversation. Nothing in what I posted indicated that my intention was to speak with authority on a topic of which I have expertise. I have not kept up with the decades long conflict.
Thank you for sharing the info about the Palestinian Authority (PA). I wondered about them, and why they were in the West Bank and Hamas was in Gaza.
To your question of whether “the Palestinian equivalent of the ‘far right Messianic Zionists’ among the Palestinians …” should also be taken into account, my answer is of course. This mutual destruction dynamic that they have going on creates instability for the entire world. Medhi used the term “Messianic” and it was new to me; I used it because he named specific people in government and he know more than I do about that situation. If it’s incorrect, please advise.
Mehdi Hassan, ok, I started reading him fifteen years ago when he wrote for the Guardian, he's erratic as hell, unreliable but this entire ONLINE conflict amounts to "battling experts and pundits," I have no idea why you think I singled you out as a "pundit," anyway, there have been waves of conquest of what is now Palestine and Israel, the Arab Muslim invasion was part of a massive seizure of lands across the Middle East, Egypt, and North Africa, reaching as far as Sicily, Spain, and finally halted in what is now France, then it took hundreds of years to roll back the Islamic invaders. This is more of the same, I just don't support the actual terrorists - and that's the terrorist state of Hamas in Gaza, the terrorist state in Iran, but the Palestinian Authority is not on that level.
There DOES need to be a "two-state solution," sure! But not with one run by terrorists who can't be voted out of power! That's a crucial difference, Israel can vote the ultra-fanatics OUT, not so, yet, in Gaza and Iran. Btw those Iranian missile strikes were intended to kill tens of thousands of Israelis, could have succeeded but for the US, UK, France, Jordanian and Saudi and Kuwaiti cooperation - also intended to terrorize their own population within Iran, "We really are determined to murder en masse, we will murder you heretics and rebels against Allah, too!" etc. etc.
Mehdi Hasan
January 28, 2024
MSNBC: Four Months of Disinformation
Common distortions include omitting the 2005 disengagement from Gaza and the subsequent election of a group sworn to Israel's destruction to power in the territory, promoting anti-Israel propagandists, and ignoring the numbers of casualties that are reported to be Hamas fighters. In addition, at least two commentators called on the US to force Israel essentially to surrender.
June 7, 2023
Mehdi Hasan’s Deceitful Defense of an Antisemitic Screed
Both Mehdi Hasan and Fatima Mohammed are entitled to their opinions and their free expression. It would just be nice if their speech came with a little less anti-Jewish demagoguery and with a lot more factual accuracy.
December 7, 2022
As Antisemitism Surges, Mehdi Hasan Guest Blames Jews
The Mehdi Hasan Show reached a new low when one of Mehdi’s guests argued that Jews promote antisemitism to advance “Israeli Zionist ideology.”
October 17, 2022
For Mehdi Hasan, Two Antisemitic Wrongs Make Ilhan Omar Right
Hasan’s lame attempts to cast Omar’s repeated employment of classic antisemitic tropes as merely “criticism of Israel,” alongside his constant efforts to politicize antisemitism, serve as a reminder that bigotry, including antisemitism, must be combatted because it is morally reprehensible, not because it is politically convenient.
https://www.camera.org/article/mehdi-hasans-pathetic-defense-of-an-antisemitic-screed/
Not quite sure where you got "Palestinians" meant Jews, not Arabs; but Palestinian Arabs do today constitute a people? because the history tells a different story: Palestine's ancient history spans thousands of years, with its crossroads location witnessing the rise and fall of empires, shaping world history. The Canaanites, Israelites, Semitics, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, and Byzantines all left their mark on the land. In addition to its historical significance, Palestine holds profound religious importance for Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Sacred sites such as the Western Wall, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and the Al-Aqsa Mosque draw countless pilgrims and visitors each year. Throughout history, the region has seen periods of coexistence and conflict between different religious and ethnic groups. Notably, during the Middle Ages, when Jewish communities faced persecution, they found refuge and protection under Muslim rule in Palestine and the wider Islamic world. The Ottoman Empire, which controlled Palestine from the 16th century until its collapse at the end of World War I, provided a sanctuary for Jews fleeing persecution in Europe. The end of the Ottoman rule marked a new chapter in Palestine's history. Following World War I, the British Empire assumed control of the region under the League of Nations mandate. The British Mandate for Palestine, established in 1920, brought significant changes to the political and social landscape of the area, setting the stage for the conflicts and struggles that would follow. (Wiki) The other part you mention: " Bush offered "American support for the creation of a provisional state of Palestine ... if Palestinians embrace democracy, confront corruption and firmly reject terror." Which would of course be nice, however neither this here US is very good at confronting corruption, if you take one look at our SCOTUS among multiple other corrupted elements of our judiciary and elected officials. Besides that, Netanyahu's clinging to power by expanding the war that already killed 30+ thousand civilians, serves only one purpose: not to face the consequences of his own corruption. Also please consider this: after the Oslo accords Rabin was assassinated and the followup were aggressive new settlements on the West Bank, which continue today: Oslo (1993-2001)
Yitzhak Rabin, Bill Clinton, and Yasser Arafat at the Oslo Accords signing ceremony on 13 September 1993
Main article: Oslo Accords
While the slow moving Madrid talks were taking place, a series of secret meetings between Israeli and Palestinian negotiators were taking place in Oslo, Norway, which resulted in the 1993 Oslo Peace Accords between Palestinians and Israel, a plan discussing the necessary elements and conditions for a future Palestinian state "on the basis of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338".[44] The agreement, officially titled the Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements (DOP), was signed on the White House lawn on 13 September 1993.
Various "transfers of power and responsibilities" in the Gaza Strip and West Bank from Israel to the Palestinians took place in the mid-1990s.[45] The Palestinians achieved self-governance of major cities in the West Bank and the entire Gaza Strip. Israel maintained and continues to maintain a presence in the West Bank for security reasons. In 2013 Israel still had control of 61% of the West Bank, while the Palestinians had control of civic functions for most of the Palestinian population. You might also take the death toll into account of both sides as far as numbers go: Oslo (1993-2001) Yitzhak Rabin, Bill Clinton, and Yasser Arafat at the Oslo Accords signing ceremony on 13 September 1993 Main article: Oslo Accords While the slow moving Madrid talks were taking place, a series of secret meetings between Israeli and Palestinian negotiators were taking place in Oslo, Norway, which resulted in the 1993 Oslo Peace Accords between Palestinians and Israel, a plan discussing the necessary elements and conditions for a future Palestinian state "on the basis of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338".[44] The agreement, officially titled the Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements (DOP), was signed on the White House lawn on 13 September 1993. Various "transfers of power and responsibilities" in the Gaza Strip and West Bank from Israel to the Palestinians took place in the mid-1990s.[45] The Palestinians achieved self-governance of major cities in the West Bank and the entire Gaza Strip. Israel maintained and continues to maintain a presence in the West Bank for security reasons. In 2013 Israel still had control of 61% of the West Bank, while the Palestinians had control of civic functions for most of the Palestinian population.
Wait - I just noticed you managed to completely omit the Gaza coup in 2006-2007, seventeen YEARS ago, that installed the internationally designated Hamas terrorists in power, what's that about?
You're confusing semi-legitimate authorities with completely bogus, terrorist outfits, as if Israel would agree to having the latter as a "partner for peace," you might as well expect Canada to agree to let Putin seize British Columbia or some territories in the Yukon!
The level of wishful thinking surrounding this is amazing - "we" ALL want some peaceful resolutions, true, but argue and disagree to various degrees about how to do that, but Hamas and Putin would gleefully see respectively all Israelis or Ukrainians killed in mass graves (Russians began that in February-March, 2022, Hamas just months ago in Israel at a freakin' music festival) - it's asymmetrical. Cannot ignore that, ever, or at least until the Gazans, Palestinians, Iranians, and Russians cast out their theocratically psycho-sexually repressed authoritarian oppressors, anyway.
Because that's exactly what it used to mean, that's why:
www.danielpipes.org/22223/my-six-step-plan-for-a-two-state-solution
And why on EARTH you recapitulate material I studied in my Ancient History course (Herodotus, Pausanias, Thucydides, Tacitus, etc. etc. ) at Macalester and before that even in the old H.G. Wells "History of the World," as a young teenager, and other courses at the U, is a mystery, sonny. As is the rest of that material - including the "Big Lie" you repeat, that Israel's casualty count in Gaza is "30 + thousand "civilians," really?* What's your source for the crackpot idea that NONE of the Hamas terrorists were killed?!
Again: NONE of this is new to me, it alters nothing in what I posted, either: the "apartheid smear" is exactly that, the Genocide smear, ditto, the fact is that there's still no elections scheduled in Gaza and the West Bank to even provide a credible partner for peace, either.
* camera-uk.org/2024/04/01/documents-show-the-reliability-of-the-source-of-bbc-casualty-figures/
"Israel’s Channel 13 recently published a report by its Arab affairs correspondent Hezi Simantov concerning Hamas documents publicised by the IDF’s Arabic language spokesman. [translation: CAMERA UK]
“In an internal intelligence document of the military wing of Hamas from 2020, it was revealed that the terrorist organisation is aware of the high percentage of failed launches by the Islamic Jihad and the danger they pose to houses near launch sites and that it even approached the PIJ with a request not to place launchers near Hamas operatives so as not to endanger them.
Another document from the year 2022, belonging to the Hamas military coordination department, describes how the PIJ’s Jerusalem brigades, which carried out a failed launch that caused casualties during Operation Breaking Dawn, hid the matter and suggested presenting the incident as the fall of an Iron Dome interceptor in order to blame Israel. […]
The IDF put its hands on many additional documents that show how aware the terrorist organisations are of the results of the failed launches, but the method of operation is clear – to hide the information and blame Israel.
The IDF spokesman added that also in the current war a significant percentage of failed launches carried out by Hamas and Islamic Jihad have been recorded. According to the data, about 11% of the launches carried out by the terrorist organisations against Israel since October 7 fell in the territory of the Gaza Strip.” {MORE}
neither am I a fan of islamist doctrine, Hamas or Iran’s leadership. Neither am I a fan of nationalistic authoritarians wherever you find them. Thanks for pointing out your extensive understanding of history, but whatever Palestine was, it was never a “jewish state” until 1948. People have been living there, jews, moslem arabs, christians wether orthodox or otherwise. How many of the 30+ thousand civilians killed were hamas? What do you know? Obviously, it takes 2 to tango. One sided assessments rarely reflect reality as it unfolds. Maybe think of what it feels like if the shoe is on the other foot? Just maybe? I have quite a few jewish friend, some Israeli and what I hear is they’re fucking sick of this shit because violence mostly begets more violence. No? War crimes are war crimes, no matter who committed them. No? Also settler’s annexation of real estate and ongoing murder of homeowners should be at least mentioned in this equation. Don’t you think? Seems international law, human rights and the right not to have no rights doesn’t matter much to you. Besides that, you seem to ignore other points made above: is Netanyahu not corrupt? Is the US confronting corruption efficiently?
Wait, hold on - you just abolished several thousand years of history and blithely continue on your merry way (I will get to your equally casual "how many were Hamas terrorists of the 33 + thousand" rhetorical question, posed AS IF IT DOESN'T MATTER IN A WAR, in a moment!) https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/timeline-of-ancient-israelite-religion-2000-539-bce
Timeline of Jewish History
3800 B.CE - 2001 BCE - The Dawn of “History”
2000 B.C.E. - 587 BCE - Context of Ancient Israelite Religion
538 BCE - 70 CE - Judaism After the Babylonian Exile
230 BCE-400 CE - Rule of Rome
70 - 500 - Rabbinic Jewish Period of Talmud Development
325 - 590 - Consolidation & Dominance of Classical Christianity
600 - 1500 - “Medieval” Period in the West
570 - 1258 - Reception & Classical Development of Muhammad's Islamic Message
1095-1258 - Crusades
1258-1500 - Further Transitions and Rebuilding of Political Islam
1291-1516 - Mamluk Rule
1517-1569 - Reformation and Post-Reformation Christian Period
1500-1920 - Dominance of Ottoman Muslim Empire in Turkey
1700-1917 - Jewish Modern and Contemporary Periods
1914-1918 - Islamic Unrest and Realignment in the Middle East
1918-1947 - British Rule in Palestine
1947-Present - Modern Israel & the Diaspora
^^^^^^^ Nota bene: This is a very brief summary of the dates, but it does indicate how ludicrous the claim is that "whatever Palestine was, it was never a “jewish state” until 1948."
Now when I read some online bilge like that, what am I supposed to conclude, that the bilge-poster is an astute, careful student of these thousands of years of history, or might as well have "just fallen off the turnip truck,"
Then you end simply launching a whole slew of mindless accusations:
"Seems international law, human rights and the right not to have no rights doesn’t matter much to you." ??? How on earth do you reach the conclusion that because I (A) Condemn the Hamas terrorist state and (2)Point out that as of now, there IS no credible Palestinian leadership to run a Palestinian state alongside Israel, that none of that "matters to me"? I mean, come ON, that's exactly what I value most, and exposing inane lies like the "apartheid" smear and the "genocide" smear are part and parcel of establishing a way forward!
You mention some settlements being built in the Occupied West Bank, ok, other settlements have also been BULLDOZED BY THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, and all of them without any exceptions, are subject to the peace negotiations' classic formula, "Land for Peace"!
Settlers killing people, really? What was was going on with that, could it have anything to do with reprisals for THIS, a long summary list of terror attacks?
https://camera-uk.org/2024/04/12/bbc-news-coverage-of-terrorism-in-israel-march-2024/
And you can surely figure out why the Hamas terrorist deaths are part and parcel of the overall conflation of all other (civilian) deaths in Gaza, from October 8 2023, to April 2024!
https://camera-uk.org/2024/04/16/following-complaint-indy-amends-article-on-alleged-gaza-casualties/
LOL, of COURSE Netanyahu is corrupt and needs to go, how does that help your case in any significant respect when it comes to the Hamas terrorist state (a paradigm case of corruption and avowed genocidal fanaticism in itself!) or Palestinian Authority corruption? It doesn't,. that's the truth.
Anyway being on the possible verge of World War 3 as instigated at last by the mad mullahs of Iran, I would think you want to seek a path to peace, which in this case, amounts to deterring further Iranian aggression against Israel via their proxies and from Iran itself, but maybe you have other preferences, who knows.
"Designated as a State Sponsor of Terrorism in 1984, Iran continued its support for terrorist-related activity in 2021, including support for Hizballah, Palestinian terrorist groups in Gaza, and various terrorist and militant groups in Iraq, Syria, Bahrain, and elsewhere throughout the Middle East."
The latest US annual Terrorism Report reiterated that Iran “continued its extensive support for terrorism,” providing funding, training and weapons to militant groups.
The 2023 report issued on November 30, covered the situation in 2022 and declared in its introduction to country reports that “Iran continued to be the leading state sponsor of terrorism, facilitating a wide range of terrorist and other illicit activities around the world.”
The year the report covered coincided with extensive indirect negotiations between Washington and Tehran on Iran’s expanding nuclear program and increasing uranium enrichment. By the end of 2022, a new nuclear deal remained elusive, but the Islamic Republic had stockpiled enough fissile material to build at least three nuclear weapons.
However, while holding talks on the nuclear issue, Iran continued its political and material support for its vast network of militant proxy groups in the region, that were targeting US forces in Iraq and Syria.
https://www.iranintl.com/en/202312020878
Yes, the tit-for-tat shadow war of proxy strikes by Iran and open assassinations of military leaders and scientists by Israel (with US connivance) was bound to spiral out of control at some point, esp. with a hothead like Netanyahu always seeking a way to attack Iran and draw in the US.
LOL, "military leaders and scientists," - leaders in terrorizing, torturing, raping, imprisoning, executing Iranian women and dissenters, you mean those "military leaders"?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Revolutionary_Guard_Corps
The Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC; Persian: سپاه پاسداران انقلاب اسلامی Sepāh-e Pāsdārān-e Enqelâb-e Eslâmī, lit. 'Army of Guardians of the Islamic Revolution'), also called Sepah or Pasdaran, is a multi-service primary branch of the Iranian Armed Forces. It was officially established by Ruhollah Khomeini as a military branch in May 1979, in the aftermath of the Iranian Revolution.[1][6] Whereas the Iranian Army protects the country's sovereignty in a traditional capacity, the IRGC's constitutional mandate is to ensure the integrity of the Islamic Republic.[7] Most interpretations of this mandate assert that it entrusts the IRGC with preventing foreign interference in Iran, thwarting coups by the traditional military, and crushing "deviant movements" that harm the ideological legacy of the Islamic Revolution.[8] Currently, the IRGC is designated as a terrorist organization by Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Sweden and the United States.[9][10]
******* And those "scientists," sure, rip that honorific out of context, why not go whole hog on the euphemisms? Lots of that went on in the prelude to U.S. official entry into WW2, might as well help muddy the waters on that one, too!
https://isis-online.org/isis-reports/detail/how-quickly-could-iran-make-nuclear-weapons-today
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/iran-could-build-several-nuclear-weapons-un-says
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_program_of_Iran
https://www.iranwatch.org/our-publications/articles-reports/irans-nuclear-timetable-weapon-potential *******
The analysis below reflects the status of Iran’s enrichment program as of February 10, 2024, the date of the latest estimates provided by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). Because Iran has reduced its cooperation with the Agency, the Agency is no longer able to precisely verify Iran's stockpile of enriched uranium at any one time. The Agency can verify uranium product that has been removed from the enrichment process, but it must rely on information provided by Iran to account for the amount that remains in-process. Because the in-process uranium represents a fraction of the total stockpile that is later verified, the estimates are suitable for use as a baseline measurement of how much enriched uranium Iran possesses. The analysis below is based on those estimates.
*******
Notice NONE of this additional information necessitates supporting the Israeli strikes to eliminate leading terrorist organizers or the nuclear programs scientists.
But it's classic, easily exposed propaganda to leave the information out.
Exactly this. I feel compelled by conscience to devil's advocacy and must ask the question "What would the U.S. government's response be if Russia or North Korea destroyed the American Consilate in Mexico, killing sixteen including two civilians?"
Cool, you can just wrench political and military events and institutions completely free of all context, and make "both sides do it" serve as a suppressed premise for the arguments!
Or more slyly, just pose it "as a question," in the true spirit of Trump himself, so you retain plausible deniability - "I didn't mean to compare the USA with dictatorships that routinely claim the dictator won a free and fair election with over 90% of the vote, has no free speech or free expression rights, no [Insert basic human rights ad libitum, ad infinitum!] and routinely imprisons or executes internal opposition - or even hunts them down and poisons them with Polonium 201 overseas - no, I just raise a question!"
https://www.iranintl.com/en/202312020878 - Excerpt:
The report also accused the Islamic Republic of orchestrating threats against dissidents abroad. “As in past years, the Iranian government continued supporting terrorist plots or associated activities targeting dissidents and other perceived enemies of the regime. A British intelligence agency publicly reported uncovering at least 10 potential threats emanating from Iran’s government to kidnap or kill individuals in the United Kingdom in 2022.”
Iran International television network was the target of some of these plots in 2022, and was forced to temporarily shift its broadcast operations from London to Washington DC under advisement by UK security officials.
“Regionally, Iran supported acts of terrorism in Bahrain, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, and Yemen through proxies and partner groups such as Hizballah and al-Ashtar Brigades,” the report stated, but also highlighted Iranian threats beyond the Middle East. “Globally, the IRGC-QF and the Ministry of Intelligence and Security remained Iran’s primary actors involved in supporting terrorist recruitment, financing, and plotting across Africa, Asia, Europe, and North and South America.”
Richard, you are imposing your own context, in your supposition of Vague Craig's intent. You go so far as to slam a legitimate question about Iran vs Israel, in a shady way. Craig posing a valid question isn't a Trump like approach.
Wrong, it's tendentious "cute" propaganda, irrespective of his "intent," for all I know he really IS that "vague" and careless with politicized, loaded language, but it's straight outta the Trump handbook - "I told them to go peacefully, everyone heard me, "..."fight like hell, or you won't have a country any more!" Taking each remark separately ignores the context, and that's without supplying the granular level of background detail the January 6 House investigating committee
supplied.
Once you wrench NORTH KOREA (or Russia, or Iran) out of its context of totalitarianism, sure, you can "prove," or pose as plausible , all sorts of nonsense. Gee, let's imagine how outer space aliens from Zeta Reticuli B would feel if we blew up their embassies, as if we can understand thinking that alien. Oh that's right, we have NO IDEA how hard-core totalitarians view "reality" once they're no longer actually understood within their cult thinking. You might as well start "imagining" how the thoroughly committed Westboro Baptist Church members would feel about being accused of vicious hate-mongering! You could ask them, sure, and they could explain how evil you are not to know the truth, too. *
And it isn't "MY" context, something imposed by me personally about the treatment of Israel, it's all over the the real world history of even just the months since October 7, much less taking into account the bizarrely similar accounts soon after the 9/11 World Trade Center and Pentagon bombings, attempting to "explain" Al Qaeda's motives, how they were "avenging something something history of the region something, yes the lives of the 3,461 killed mattered, but...."
Cf. "Then there is the “yes, but…” response. “Yes” Hamas started it; “Yes,” Hamas tortured and massacred Israeli civilians; “Yes” Hamas puts military infrastructure in civilian neighborhoods; “Yes” Israel is entitled to self-defense; “Yes” the Israelis warn Palestinians. “But” so many more Palestinians have been killed than Israelis.
Isn’t that the definition of “disproportionate?” No. It isn’t.
Proportionality in international law is not about equality of death or civilian suffering, or even about firepower returned being equal in sophistication or lethality to firepower received. Proportionality weighs the military necessity of an action against the suffering that the action might cause to enemy civilians in the vicinity. A review of expert opinion – none of which was written in relation to Israel – helps to clarify. And each should be read in relation to Hamas crimes against Israeli civilians." [Source -
******* dailycaller.com/2023/10/28/opinion-dont-lecture-israel-about-proportionality-shoshana-bryen/
*www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVV2Zk88beY
Proportionality in international law is not about equality of death or civilian suffering, or even about firepower returned being equal in sophistication or lethality to firepower received. Proportionality weighs the military necessity of an action against the suffering that the action might cause to enemy civilians in the vicinity. A review of expert opinion – none of which was written in relation to Israel – helps to clarify. And each should be read in relation to Hamas crimes against Israeli civilians.
I grew up in the Westboro Baptist Church. Here's why I left | Megan Phelps-Roper
6,653,126 views Mar 6, 2017
What's it like to grow up within a group of people who exult in demonizing ... everyone else? Megan Phelps-Roper shares details of life inside America's most controversial church and describes how conversations on Twitter were key to her decision to leave it. In this extraordinary talk, she shares her personal experience of extreme polarization, along with some sharp ways we can learn to successfully engage across ideological lines.
It was an assassination of a terrorist master-mind for all you know, it's what Iranian "diplomats and military leaders" are infamous for doing, including murdering Israelis, so stop with the "bothsidesism" at the risk of outing yourself as a feckless apologist for the most dedicated terrorist nation-state on the planet.
And if you want to start in on the "but the US and Israel..." [something something], be my guest, the scale and intensity of whatever reprisals the US and Israel have carried out over the last 30 or 40 years pales in scope compared to Iran's instigations of said reprisals.
Shades of gray matter, we in the US / "the West" are far from perfect, especially in light of that crackpot war of choice in Iraq, true, but that hardly serves as any excuse, justification, or morally sound rationale for Iranian-sponsored murders around the world, does it?
"The report also accused the Islamic Republic of orchestrating threats against dissidents abroad. “As in past years, the Iranian government continued supporting terrorist plots or associated activities targeting dissidents and other perceived enemies of the regime. A British intelligence agency publicly reported uncovering at least 10 potential threats emanating from Iran’s government to kidnap or kill individuals in the United Kingdom in 2022.”
Iran International television network was the target of some of these plots in 2022, and was forced to temporarily shift its broadcast operations from London to Washington DC under advisement by UK security officials.
“Regionally, Iran supported acts of terrorism in Bahrain, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, and Yemen through proxies and partner groups such as Hizballah and al-Ashtar Brigades,” the report stated, but also highlighted Iranian threats beyond the Middle East. “Globally, the IRGC-QF and the Ministry of Intelligence and Security remained Iran’s primary actors involved in supporting terrorist recruitment, financing, and plotting across Africa, Asia, Europe, and North and South America.” Source:
https://www.iranintl.com/en/202312020878
US Report Labels Iran 'Leading State Sponsor Of Terrorism'
Saturday, 12/02/2023
Iran International Newsroom
[Volant Media manages Iran International, the first 24/7 and most popular Persian news channel which is targeted at people living in Iran and those in the Farsi speaking diaspora.]
Iran gave advance warning to Israel so they were prepared. It was, as you said, a great accomplishment. Israel’s attacked the embassy of a sovereign nation against international protocol and without advance notice to the US. I hope they stop doing stupid things. If they do, we need to stop funding the Zionists, stop foreign aid, and stop supplying munitions.
Stupid and cruel things. I wonder if our aid for Israel had been given less freely in the past would there have been less of the cruelty and stupidity.
I doubt things would have been different. The Israelis have one of the most powerful and effective lobbies in Washington. They literally bought Congress. This led to a false sense of security by that tiny nation. Hopefully, this series of events will serve to clip their wings. They have done stupid things because they knew the US had their back. I hope that ends. I am not anti-Israel, but I oppose their apartheid policies. That situation is extremely complex. Moving the embassy to Jerusalem was a major slap in the face to the Palestinians. Kushner really screwed things up in my view.
British Jewish historian Simon Schama said at the end if his series on the Jews, that post-Holocaust there needed to be a Jewish nation. But not one that treats the Palestinians as it has done. And he might add, it is still doing, now to the point of ridding itself of the Palestinians one way or the other.
That is the goal of Israel, to eliminate the entire Arab community in that territory that does not completely abide by Israeli standards. There are Arabs in Israel and as long as they toe the line, they are treated humanely. Those outside the ever moving boundaries, live in an open air prison.
Israel's Arab population is 21.1%. They seem to be second class citizens and absolutely powerless. How can this be?
Jews (7,208,000, 73.6%)
Arabs (2,080,000, 21.1%) Other (non-Jewish, non-Arab) 554,000 (5.7%)
I am absolutely sick of Israel, with a population less than that of Illinois, gets us into nothing but trouble.
Netanyahu and Trump alike, except in intelligence and education, prove how sick it is that we seem powerless to keep one man from doing so much evil.
I agree. Nearly half if the Jews live in the United States. There is more than one Pro-Israel lobby. I suppose each can make legal contributions, but there are more ways to compensate congressmen than legal contributions. They are extremely powerful and are probably comparable to the NRA in terms of buying favors. I agree. It is a tiny country and it is a strategic location, but we have more bases in the area. You seldom see Israel assisting the US in any conflict but they expect our full support. It is a great little country. Let them fight their own war. I regret the 10/7 tragedy, but Israel has extracted their revenge.
Lucian,
I think you missed the mark, here. As Michele and Peter note below, Netanyahu and Israel fired the first round, targeting an Iranian embassy. Targeting a foreign embassy is a brazen act (of war).
Thereafter, two weeks passed before Iran took action. Was Iran's action unexpected? No. It was completely anticipated. The world knew the Iranian mullahs would need to "save face" and protect their power by a taking a retributive act.
But during that two week period, I am willing to bet that there was a concerted effort among world leaders (led by President Biden) to find a way to allow Iran save face and thereafter deescalate the situation.
I'm guessing here, but the fact that 99% of the missiles and drones did not hit their intended target, leads me to believe that the Iranian missile/drone barrage was an orchestrated event. It allowed the mullahs to claim it followed through on its threat while also signaling, publicly, they would take no further action unless Israel further escalates. At the same time, it also gave all sides the opportunity to assess their weapon systems in the event a real war were to break out.
However, I believe neither Israel not Iran want an all out war. They both understand such a battle would have catastrophic consequences for their people.
Netanyahu wants war. And Israel keeps voting for war.
Most Israelis do not support Netanyahu. He becomes PM by promising right wing religious parties to support their causes. To blame all Israelis is the same thing as blaming Americans for what Trump did.
Correct! It is an unfair statement. Israel is now equated with Netanyahu and his Likud party. The inhabitants, the Israelis, Arabs, Palestinians on the West Bank, and others, can’t stand Bibi. He has gone haywire and they do not support him nor do they trust him. He is Israel’s Trump
Unfortunately if trump is reelected a person should blame America.
Same with Netanyahu, if he is unsupported why is he the longest serving PM?
If Trump is elected, we can blame the Electoral College, not America as a whole. Netanyahu becomes Prime Minister because of the parliamentary system which enables him to leverage his voters' support by joining forces with right wing parties in a you scratch my back I'll scratch yours coalition. He just barely made the last time.
No you don’t.
America voted Trump in as president and Israel voted Netanyahu in as prime ministers.
Guess there just aren’t enough decent people.
Not one of you anti Netanyahu admit that tearing up the Iranian treaty was stupid.
All of America and all of Israel hates Iran when it is really Trump and Netanyahu to blame.
And yet, most Israelis have supported flattening Gaza and have been vulnerable to the propaganda coming directly from the likudniks.
Gazans are powerless. But Iran? Of course most Israelis don't support getting into a war with a country where the balance of power isn't weighted entirely on their own side.
And what is the source of your information about "most Israelis"? Do you follow news from Israel or know any Israelis? Have you ever been there?
"In the same poll, respondents were asked, “What is the best way to obtain the release of the hostages?” and 81.5 percent answered that “military pressure should be applied to Hamas so that it agrees to acceptable conditions for the release of the abductees.” This is something that Netanyahu and his military chiefs repeat every day."
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/israel-gaza-war-netanyahu-polling/
I read the poll summary you cited and was surprised that you use it as a basis for your anti-Israel statements since it was fairly neutral and balanced. I personally do not particularly trust polls, but assuming it was accurate, the fact that Israelis support "military pressure" does not mean that they support "flattening Gaza." And with that, I am done responding to your toxic anti-Zionism.
When it comes to the Middle East, it's hard to tell who fired the first round, or when it was fired. Or even whether the first round was actually "fired," as opposed to, say, written down in a treaty. Either way, it didn't happen in 2024, or 2023.
"When it comes to the Middle East, it's hard to tell who fired the first round, or when it was fired. Or even whether the first round was actually "fired," as opposed to, say, written down in a treaty. Either way, it didn't happen in 2024, or 2023."
When it comes to the Middle East, it's hard to tell who fired the first round, or when it was fired. Or even whether the first round was actually "fired," as opposed to, say, written down in a treaty. Either way, it didn't happen in 2024, or 2023."
When it comes to the Middle East, it's hard to tell who fired the first round, or when it was fired. Or even whether the first round was actually "fired," as opposed to, say, written down in a treaty. Either way, it didn't happen in 2024, or 2023."
Folk should, need to read the above thrice before firing their first volley.
Now that I have:
WW3?
(1) There are 10s of 1000s of computerized WW3 triggers and responses and counter responses in the hopper.
(2) In a patriarchal society any day is a good day to begin ta war. Note: Am one who nevah evah qualifies war with nonsense, 4eg low intensity or shadow, or blah, blah, blah. War is a word much like truth. It needn't be propped up or diluted in other words.
(3) In the region alliances and allegiances shift much like the sands, that is to say by the moment. While inconceivable to most in the West due to governments being political v. the region's religious sect centric. Said another way there is no such thing as the Muslim world because the dominant sects, Shia and Sunni,lay claim to be the one and only true Muslim.
(4) The latest event involving Iran targeting Israel is to those who see war as winnable as escalatory when in truth it is simply more dick measuring. Yes, have an explicit bias against unnecessary mil jargon and how it creeps into everyday life further sucking in more and more people. Not going to address Israel's strike against Iran's diplomatic complex other than to label it a cascading event.
(5) Iran's response was stoopid and therefore damned to failure. It exposed how awful their weapons program is. Unofficial reports place the % of failed to launch or fizzled before sizzling at circa 40%. This unofficial count cries out to be publicly quantified by Western intelligence services so the world knows it.
Any mil that plans an attack knowing a high % of weapon failure is an own goal. Dunno the % of weapons stock they used, do know 99% of what they used was wasted. For a nation under sanctions with more to come Iran fits O's warning and Rule1, don't do stoopid things.
(5) Don't see Iran's few friends and allies as being pleased with such an abject failure nor pleased at the joint effort by Sunni centric, The Kingdom, UAE aka Little Sparta <sarcasm> and Jordan involved in any degree in assisting Israel, UK, and America. And must be troubled by how poorly Iran's ballistic missiles performed since they share technology.
While on paper the attack plan might sound good, the characterization needed the first and last words to be, if we get lucky. The words Iran would love to take back are as far as we are concerned, this is the end of it.
(6) At the same time Bibi et al got lucky and best acknowledge it during their internal deliberations. Just about eveything broke their way, from early intel warnings from the West, the Kingdom, and UAE, mil assistance from friends and partners, to Iranian weapon failures. And had to breathe a sigh of relief over the technology used to render the attack moot. (An overlooked tech involves fixed wing aircraft taking out drones and cruise missiles in the dead of darkness that goes far beyond night vision to what tech is now in a pilot's helmet.)
(7) Unlike the US, Israel has faced 100s if not 1000s of attacks via the land, sea, and air. Incoming sirens are not new to the general population except for the Bedouin Arab-Israelis. The theme of their mil is D-fense over offense. Simply juxtapose the 6months lingering in Gaza v. 6hours of defending against a sophisticated attack,
(8) Dunno when, where, w/what, and how Bibi et al will respond. Do know he will. Hopefully, it will be holistically and shared with the West before any active measures.
(9) The question I have is what do the Sunni Arab nations want Israel to do about Iran. Personally don't see Ru or PRC inserting themselves if the West doesn't get directly involved. There is no upside to Ru or PR (Uyghurs) , both with their own Sunni problem to actively side with a Shia nation which would also see their relatively warm relationship with Tr will go poof. They both know in these times war's underestimated destabilization (am looking at you W.) now cuts both ways.
(10) There is only a 10 if more stoopid follows.
It was meant to fail, I believe. The ayatollahs don't want a full scale war that might well end their comfortable existence at the top of the food/power chain in Iran. They had every confidence in Israel's Iron Dome and knew there were plenty of U.S. & UK ships to support it. Plus they gave all the neighborhood a heads-up to close their air space beforehand before throwing a few hundred million rials of stale old-stock drones (to deplete defenses) and then missiles, against billions of dollars of Iron Dome defensive armaments.
I'll bet Bibi is hoping very hard that Trump allows Johnson to get that aid package vote on the House floor real soon. Netanyahu has been lured into running onto another banana skin. If one looks at it from where I sit, from a non-western, Arab point of view. Their societies, social structures, languages, and thefore thought patterns differ from ours - as do east Asians, for their own similar yet unique reasons.
Agree Iran had no allusions to success other than chit-luck and the fireworks meant for domestic morale. How success is measured in these times is very subjective and dependent upon who is doing the measuring and for what purposes. Objectively all parties lost a chit load of weaponry with no actual gain to show for it.
That is one definition of dick measuring. A term that needs to be in the OED and would give run and set competition for most uses, meanings, and definitions.
lol at Bibi's banana peel. So true. He says his career as the yellow brick road when in reality it was a road of continuous banana peels. Tanx to you will never get that visual out of me-noggin', brother.
I agree with your comment. In addition, Iran notified Israel of the impending attack hours before any weapon hit. It was a symbolic act. Iran could have done more damage, but as you noted it was a face saving act. A nation does not attack the embassy of another nation unless it is the US. Israel wants a war and they want to drag the US into the conflict and I cannot tell you how much I oppose any US involvement. I am disappointed that the US participated in defense of Israel. This is their war, not ours.
I so hope you are right, Andrew, that neither Israel nor Iran want all out war. I just read former U.S. Senator Adam Kinzinger's book, "Renegade." I was struck by 2 things from his service in the U.S. Air Force:
1. How many forces and how much military equipment we have in the region, at the ready (for a saving face operation up to WWIII), and
2. The fact that the U.S. military utilizes more oil based fuels than any other entity in the world. (read about his experiences refueling jets in flight from the tanker he was piloting).
If WWIII doesn't end human existence by anhilation, it will do so through accelerated global warming.
Hopefully this game of tit for tat will "fuel" our global peace efforts instead.
“Coalition of the malevolent” which includes the right wing nationalists here as well as the usual international suspects. This is so frightening.
Hamas got exactly what it wanted. A whole generation of Palestinians now hate Israel with the passion of a thousand suns. It will never end.
And it's causing splits among Democrats here.
You have no idea how much Palestinians hate Hamas and despise the Palestinian Authority, do you? Or how much Israelis share their loathing of Netanyahu's government?
Yet the world can't solve this set of seemingly endless wars breaking out without something like this:
https://www.danielpipes.org/22223/my-six-step-plan-for-a-two-state-solution
Excerpt:
"Beyond that agreement, an eventual Palestinian state has become inevitable. True, a century ago, "Palestinians" meant Jews, not Arabs; but Palestinian Arabs do today constitute a people. Pretending otherwise smacks of futility. True also that reestablishing Jordanian and Egyptian rule in the West Bank and Gaza from 60 years ago is a more attractive alternative than a two-state solution; but both Amman and Cairo vehemently rebuff this idea. Israel ruling all of those territories protracts one of the world's most vicious and lengthy conflicts. So, Palestine it is.
But what sort of Palestine? There lies the second area of agreement between Washington and Jerusalem. Each accepted it on condition of a complete overhaul of Palestinian conduct. Each posited three prerequisites. Bush offered "American support for the creation of a provisional state of Palestine ... if Palestinians embrace democracy, confront corruption and firmly reject terror." Netanyahu itemized Israel's conditions as a "guarantee regarding demilitarization and Israel's security needs," plus recognition of Israel "as the State of the Jewish people."
Together, these demands – which remain as central today as when first expressed – require a transformation of Palestinian attitudes and actions. (Still, they remain partial and other demands should be added; an end to PA vilification of Israel, recognition of Jerusalem as its capital, and a full normalization of relations.)
Unfortunately, those six conditions have virtually disappeared from the collective memory. Forgetting them, the United States and Israel engage in a useless "yes or no to Palestine?" argument. With them, the two governments can engage in a pragmatic and constructive "has the PA met the prerequisites?" discussion.
The PA, which turns 30 next month, has an extensive record on which to be judged. Here's a summary assessment on each of those six U.S.-Israeli requirements:
Establish democracy: PA leader Mahmoud Abbas is in the 20th year of his 4-year term and spurns even the rigged elections typical of tyrants pretending to be democratic.
Reduce corruption: Ghaith al-Omari, a former advisor to Abbas, finds that "a staggering 87 percent of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza believe that the PA is corrupt."
Reject terror: The PA brazenly celebrates the murder of Israelis. For example, a televised sermon declared that "All weapons must be aimed at the Jews." It also bragged about its role on Oct. 7.
Demilitarize: The PA has over 83,000 security personnel on which it spends one-third of its budget, making it (along with Hamas) the most militarized society in the world. (Only North Korea matches that percentage.)
Guarantee Israel's security needs: The PA last year endorsed an intent "to blow up all of the Zionist entity's cities."
Recognize Israel as the Jewish state: Abbas adamantly rejects this, taunting Israelis: "You can call yourselves whatever you want, but I will not accept it."
As the PA fails every joint-U.S.-Israel condition, Washington and Jerusalem have their work cut out. Time to end their useless squabble and focus on getting Abbas and his regime to fulfill those common-sense requirements, for example by reducing the PA's hyper-militarization. Accordingly, some humble advice to each government." {More}
Thank you Lucien. This is a view few have broken down so clearly with the eyes of both a reporter and West Point alumnus. You’ve described vividly what played out the night of that assault on Israel in terms of both the weapon systems and coordinated strategy that shielded a population - perhaps never so throughly before in history of modern warfare.
Any familiarity of how strategically critical this region is to every economic power in the world makes the ferocity of that defense unsurprising. You show the chess board where the pieces are interconnected in the business of power, defense of interest if not territory and hegemony. Because it’s more than an internecine conflict between religious factions or philosophy; democratic (albeit wounded by corruption and influence) government versus theocracies dressed as facsimiles of such, but about oil.
As long as oil is driving industry, commerce and necessities of daily life that keep society comfortable- we will continue to defend as the knights do the king and queen - both of which here are oil.
Did Bibi and the IDF think that Iran would not retaliate for the bombing of their embassy ??Two barbarians were killed and now Israel and the world are in danger . Insanity prevails.
That is what happens when a criminal leader has to maintain power or go to prison.
Do you know what wasn’t referred to as war crimes? The terror attack on October 7. Which involves atrocities beyond belief, including rape, beheadings, burning alive. It would’ve been very helpful if it was immediately called out for what it was, many lives could’ve been saved if on October 8, the world demanded the hostages be returned, and held Hamas to account. That didn’t happen.
The more you read about this event from multiple sources the more you realize that a lot of those 'facts' are atrocity propaganda. Hamas wasn't responsible for most of it. Some Gazans yes, but not Hamas. Beheadings didn't happen. People burned alive? No. Didn't happen. Rape? I'm sure that happened. Was it Hamas? No. Gazans? Yes.
GO AWAY!
Why do you think you're so resistant to opposing points of view? Are you insecure about your own?
Because you are both uninformed and have an angle to push. A video compilation was put together from all of the body cams of the Hamas terrorists. It was shown to a room full of journalists. Most of them could not watch it. they were crying and throwing up. There’s a lot of eyewitness reports there’s a lot of video I’ve seen from the actual day of the terrorist attack. There’s one that stayed with me. A young woman was being dragged through the streets bleeding from between her legs. The rape has finally been acknowledged. It is fact. If you honestly believe what you said you’re ignorant, if you said it to be foul, you are foul go away
I stand by my comments. Hamas was not responsible for the atrocities you stated, some of which didn't happen at all. They are a highly disciplined force.
Did rape happen? There is film footage of something and it is likely correct . A Gazan, or Gazans, did this, for sure. It was not Hamas. The distinction is important. I nearly threw up when I saw it too, btw.
Did Hamas murder some people? Yes, brutally. No question. It's wrong and the perps should be punished, just as radical Zionist forces responsible for murderous collective punishment of innocents should be subject to punishment.
The US withholding weapons and funds from Israel to match the supposed desires of Biden, for example, would be a start.
See below:
"Once released, Porat also claimed that the Israeli government gave her a specific script of talking points that she refused to go along with."
"The complex and evolving narrative surrounding the October 7 events has raised doubts about the justifications for Israel’s brutal military response in Gaza. As the situation continues to unfold, it becomes increasingly apparent that the true story of that day may not be as straightforward as initially portrayed."
https://scheerpost.com/2023/10/29/the-hannibal-directive-what-really-happened-on-october-7th/
Sure, it's an act of war — but no more than the act of war when Israel first bombed the Iranian consulate in Damascus on April 1st, violating diplomatic immunity and international law, flouting its impunity. Maybe Israel wouldn't have to contend with the likes of Hamas or Hezbollah at all, had it not built dozens of illegal settlements throughout the West Bank, and blockaded Gaza? What if Israel had actually wanted peace and returned to the 1967 Green Line — borders that already granted Israel a lot more of historic Palestine than originally envisioned in the 1947 UN Partition vote, which it has often reminded the world of, as proof of its legitimacy? It's obvious to any student of colonial 19th and 20th century history that Israel is a settler colonial state, which practices apartheid against Palestinians throughout what used to be called Palestine. To the Palestinians, it's not the Israel Defense Forces, but the IOF—Israel Occupation Forces. You need to put yourselves in Palestinian shoes, as do the Irish, who lived under a brutal British occupation for hundreds of years. No wonder the Irish support Palestinian autonomy, human rights and freedom. No wonder millions of us do. If Israel wants peace, it will have to end its imperial ambitions and forget about conquering and colonizing the West Bank and Gaza. But it may be too late. The DNA of Israel is already set in stone. It seems more likely, alas, that the entire project will implode and that the region will continue to convulse in violence for another 10 to 20 years. What a shame. It doesn't have to be this way.
3000 years and counting
wow so much passion in some of the comments. cool hearts solve problems hot hearts generate them. iran has to accept the reality of a jewish state. if they do then perhaps there will be peace however the doctrine they hold presupposes the death of israel and all the israelis. as long as that is the narrative going forward we will not see peace. yes, the government of netanyahu has to go that's for sure. i don't think that the iranian people or the israeli people want war. it's easy to make a quarter turn away from the "tit for tat" it just requires political will and humility and the recognition of our humanity.
But Susan, ask yourself honestly, does it seem as if Israel has accepted the reality of Palestinians who were living there before Israel declared itself a state? Its actions suggest that it does not accept Palestinians as equal human beings. Bet Tsedek, Amnesty Int'l and Human Rights Watch have all declared Israel's treatment of and occupation over Palestinians as apartheid. Why aren't we talking about that here?
We're not talking about that because it's not the topic at hand. Also, the history and relationships here are incredibly complex, a complexity that is ignored by the left. This is not to say that Israel is perfect by any means, nor is it to defend Netenyahu and the right wing. But I would ask everyone who has a black and white view of this -- one that portrays Israel as the bad guy, full stop -- to actually read some history. A nuanced view is essential.
The 'nuance' of buildings crushing young bones under collapsed buildings? Is that what you mean?
I see someone afraid to call a spade a spade using the excuse of 'complexity' as bubble wrap to protect them from reality.
Feel free to miss my point. I will not argue further.
"Yes, the government of netanyahu has to go that's for sure." Amen. Bibi wants power. He is not interested in what is best for Israel. He even tried to eliminate the Israeli Supreme Court. He is not a rational man and is using this event to preserve his place of power.
Trump tore up the treaty with Iran to please Netanyahu.
Iran has every right to launch attacks on Israel.
Why does Israel have 200 nuclear weapons?
It is because Israel is a very small country surrounded by Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. All are enriched in oil and minerals that are very desirable in creating bombs. Israel devised the Iron Dome to ensure its safety from attacks. The US provides batteries and such for the Dome to help it ward off bomb carrying drones and missiles which are aimed at Israel. Don’t forget that Israel is home to the Al Aqsa Mosque, The Western Wall, and the Dome of the Rock.
Why didn’t Israel encourage the peace process Obama set up?
Iran deleted its nukes but trump at Netanyahu urging threw away the chance.
The Saudi prince too they were going to have Abraham accords to protect them from the very mullahs they had strengthened.
Now Saudi has a peace treaty with Iran curtsy of China while America is almost at war with Iran.
No peace, more proliferation and no pivot to the east. Fact China is a bigger customer of Saudi than America is.
Biden is just as bad but it really was too late to restart peace talks.
All muslims supported Irans actions not a concern about the mosque.
Ask any European government, did Iran keep their word and did trump break America’s.
Israel is complicit in everything happening now. Everything Trump touches turns to excrement.
And no one wants to understand that it is very bad for the citizens of Iran too.
Another incisive article, thanks, Lucian.
This is certainly an emotional discussion. Certain people insist on defending the Zionists. I cannot. Bibi knows more about our political system than most of our congressmen in both parties who obtain monies in various ways from Israel. I will reiterate, if the Zionists retaliate against Iran [who warned the Israelis in advance], we need to stop the flow of money to Israel, stop the Israeli apartheid policies, and stop the munitions we provide. Israel is losing face in world public opinion. They wear big girl panties and they need to fight their own wars. In response to another question, pilots and other aviators are far safer than infantrymen on the ground. The reality is, Israel's military power is far superior to Hamas and other Arab countries. They do not need us. They have 400 nukes. Cut them off. These are my personal views as are the views of those whose views that differ from mine. We have no need for pontificating hawks. We need to stop beating a dead horse.
Too busy packing to read this post today. I’ll respond tomorrow after l read it in Toronto. Sure hope it will be an uneventful night!
I see we have the usual suspects on here launching the usual fact-free "apartheid," "open air prison," "Israel's lobby bought Congress" smears, probably the "genocide" smear as well.
https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/allegation-israel-apartheid-state
https://www.danielpipes.org/22223/my-six-step-plan-for-a-two-state-solution?utm_source=Middle+East+Forum&utm_campaign=7fdcf49781-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2024_04_04_12_38&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_086cfd423c-7fdcf49781-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D&goal=0_086cfd423c-7fdcf49781-33654329&mc_cid=7fdcf49781&mc_eid=e9890ace88
That "open air prison" supposedly characterizing the Gaza Strip is especially weird - Hamas has run Gaza since their coup in 2006-2007! It's as if every last item in their terrorist campaign to murder and torture their internal opposition, steal humanitarian aid to build hundreds of miles of tunnels underneath all manner of civilian infrastructure, launch unguided missiles, mortars and drones at Israeli civilians - means exactly NOTHING to the people posting this drivel!
They also single out AIPAC for their legal campaign contributions, with no mention of the contributions given by the "pro-Palestinian" legal contributors, as if there is something sinister about either group donating to support candidates with whom they agree!
You never give up on this concept will give u credit for that! apartheid, YES open air prison, YES "Israel's lobby bought Congress HELL YES mears, probably the "genocide Absolutely YES... Our blind support of Israel and the MIC hawking that gear for decades is really paying dividends isn't it. Let's talk about genocide: deliberately starving, depriving of water, attempting to permanently relocate people, the intentional destruction of cultural sites ... I believe all of this has happened and is happening in Gaza over the last six months and fits the u.n. definition of genocide very closely
Yeah no, you're uninformed and ignorant of the definitions, c'est la vie!
Good background context and post-facto analysis here: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/04/14/middle-east-iran-israel-war-00152138