They just want to be Kyle Rittenhouse for a day and go shoot people who they don't like for whatever dumbass reason - or that crazy couple (fortunately I forget their names) who brandished their weapons at protestors. It's revolting (in the upchuck sense, not in the revolution sense). They don't have something they actually believe in, but are afraid of not being in control. Pathetic.
I was at Camp Buckner, in the same field as you, that same summer after plebe year. Your description of chaos, Buckner-style, is perfect. I remember finding the wadded material from the blanks fired at me, the machine gun emplacements that seemed impossible ever to overrun (our goal), the mind numbing logistics someone undertook to feed and supply our whole class in the field. I resigned from West Point in August 1966, headed for Berkeley, and never looked back. War is not the answer. And the Proud Boys are pretenders and punks.
The pandemic gave us a breakdown in supply and critical materials. A week of crazed violence throughout the country will cause a sudden and tragic break in the supply chain as trucks on the interstate are easy targets and drivers simply vanish. Within a month most supermarkets would be empty and possibly looted. Every uniformed police officer would be a moving target for all kinds of angry gunmen. With ATM's turned off and the internet disrupted or stopped a nation of web-addicts would be hysterical. After a month with no cellphones or landlines everyone would be miserable as infrastructure stumbles into black outs and serious confusion. And then hunger and desperation sets in. Medical services shattered. Diabetics began to die without medicine, millions become destitute as most business shut down. A civil war like the 1860's was in a largely rural country and the war never really touched the north except for draft riots. The rebels who ever they might be will have to find a way to feed tens of millions or end up being slaughtered by a starving populus.
This could also play out in winter months (late 2024/early 2025) so add winter storm disruptions to the modifiers. Our supply chain breaks down even now with just a few ice storms or power outages if they go on long enough, let alone a pandemic (and will Covid still be a disruptor in 2024-25 like it is today?)
On the other hand, if all the military might of the USA couldn't defeat either the Vietnamese or the Afghan fighters, how will that same military fare against homegrown armed bands of fanatical Amurrikkkan guerrillas, determined to fight a civil war? This is not a rhetorical question.
It's good to remember the Vietnamese were funded and supplied with advanced military weapons by the USSR and China, while Afghan fighters had their own state sponsor in Iran. I often ask our incipient neo-confederates who they think will sponsor them with credit, money, arms, training, and even fighters. Few of them have even considered what they'll do for logistics and secure communications in a real war environment where their opponent is using air forces to control and destroy transportation, and every electronic communication device they have is jammed.
But this assumes the insurgents are the Trumpies. What happens if the GOP seizes power by hook and by crook and assumes the authorities of all police and military forces (who go along with it because, orders)? Suddenly the disaffected citizens are those opposed to Trumpism. We're not gonna get help from Canada...
I hope you're right. As an insurgent you want to provoke an over-reaction with lots of collateral damage to discredit the authorities, That's easy with the militarized police.
As I understand it, (not that I would know firsthand) training for a war in any context takes time, dedication, intelligence, determination, physical and mental toughness.
The Republicans are real good at talking the talk, but when it comes down to doing what they want, not so much. They're good at cheer leading and armchair quarterbacking and anything that requires them to do physical strain would offend them.
You expect them to do what?
You're right that they won't do anything for a war, because Fox News tells them the lie that it's all won, and they're happy.
Besides, there's a pandemic on. They don't want to bother, it's too much trouble.
Gravy Seals is a good name for them. Most real combat veterans despise them as the people in the VFW halls who boast about their service while in the motor pool.
You have given us a small taste of how ignorant we civilians are of actual combat and its attendant chaos and confusion. And for that, we thank you, sir.
Finally, some one says it. These gravy seals and other clowns couldn't take over a public toilet. You're right, and it's a shame, the media hype and gnashing of teeth is shameful.
Lucian as usual paints an extremely vivid picture. You feel you are tight there along side him. My army experience by contrast was 32 weeks of infantry training in England. Wales and Scotland. as a private in the British army. serving from 1951 to 1953. We were training at first to be deployed to Hong Kong, but wound up stationed at Edinburgh Castle attached to a Scottish regiment. regiment, Our new destination, Korea. Our orders were changed at the last minute to Egypt and after a few weeks there, there they sent us to Aqaba, Jordan. We heard later that 50% of the Scots we trained with in Edinburgh perished in Korea. While at Edinburgh castle a few of us were recruited to act as medieval soldiers in a play at the Edinburgh festival. The other guys were furious as we were excused all duties for six weeks. A funny sideline for those with curious minds. There was a mirror on the ground by the guard house so the guard on duty could verify that the Scottish soldiers were following the strict dress code, nothing under their kilts. (Maybe I should have said a strict "undress" code :) I have no idea if that is still the case. I'm guessing not. Our final destination was in Goslar, Germany. For recreation we'd go horseback riding and in the winter skiing in the Harz mountains, A couple of years later I wound up in South Africa working in the gold mines,, then the next five years in Southern Rhodesia. But that's another story. I arrived in the US in 1961 working in Yonkers NY for the same company as in Rhodesia, (Now Zimbabwe_, After a second retirement I wound up an extra/actor type in Los Angeles. But at 89 now just avoiding the world at large as an experienced observer of how the fanatical and crazy elements of society have gained dominance over the rest of us. Lucian among others keep us fully informed. But to take your minds off the serious stuff for a moment, Just for fun I put together 3 short videos I participated in as a would-be actor: I play Milton in Milton, the first video, and Milton in the second video, MastrChef Senior with James Corden and Gordon Ramsay, The third video is from College Humor. I hope I haven't bored anyone with my rambling totally off the political subject, but Lucian did write a mostly biographical bit this time. which I know we all enjoy. https://youtu.be/rPkRfVwWBnU
Yes, it's too hard. I was never in combat but i had the same kind of field training at Ft. Sill, six weeks of it, and learned how to direct artillery fire accurately. But not against living persons, but against burned out trucks and retired tanks and sometimes an old jeep, and none of it was moving or trying to get out of the fire zone. I was good at it, but against such targets, it was hard not to be good at it. And yet when it came time to fire model demonstration missions in front of the entire cadet corps, I was the only one to do it well. Now imagine those were real people, looking for you because you're the most dangerous guy on the battlefield. Forward observers have a life expectancy in combat that is somewhere short of five minutes. Now imagine that it's the U. S. Army you're going up against. You won't have artillery, they will. They'll have weapons the right will not even know about. Some of them will be right wing in their hearts, but they are trained, well trained, to obey orders. The right wing breeds these fantasies, but that's all they are is fantasies. Rhetoric. They can't handle reality, as they demonstrate by believing in someone who is clearly as wrapped up in fantasy land as they are. He, as Lucian says, who cannot be named.
My good friend, a Marine, confirms exactly what you have said.
"You won't have artillery, they will. They'll have weapons the right will not even know about. Some of them will be right wing in their hearts, but they are trained, well trained, to obey orders."
He goes further, saying that if you ("you" as in the right wing believers in fantasy warfare) won't even know what hit you. One minute you'll be playing soldier with your weapon of choice, and the next minute you'll be targeted and gone in a flash.
Hahahaha! "Playing soldier!" That perfectly describes those pseudo-military fantasists. I actually look forward to seeing real soldiers turn those morons into minced meat. Still... let's hope your Marine friend is right and those retired generals were wrong when they suggested that the current military is full of right-wing extremists who will obey t-Rump's orders rather than those of their commanders.
Lucian, I was touched by your account of escorting the widow of a fallen warrior. Thank you as always for sharing your experiences. I live in a peaceful spot along the Eastern Shore. Not so much lately but sometimes the peace is disturbed by two low flying C130 Hercules, usually at night headed into Dover AFB returning fallen troops. I hope you are correct that “its just too hard” to pull the trigger that starts the ball rolling. I’m sure Kyle Rittenhouse saw himself as the hero of the insurrection and is still wondering WTF as he visits Mar a Lago. My fear that there is a tipping point amongst the Right that could cause the fire to spread. I don’t want to get into the logistics of war as I am not x-military. But I do believe that at least in some parts of this country that there is a tinderbox environment ready to erupt into hopefully only localized violence.
I respect this column, it is obviously informed and has a valuable perspective. But I fear it doesn't go outside the box enough. I can imagine several scenarios for "civil war" that don't have to look like a conventional civil war at all. I can easily see an insurrectionary movement developing somewhat like the "troubles" of Northern Ireland. Low-level guerilla/terrorism activity that is bloody, hard to suppress, and results in a loss of many civil liberties. I can also see a "polite" coup done legally by GOP/trumpista operatives who manage to subvert or manipulate election processes -- this is obviously going on right now -- and who then seize power ruthlessly while the rest of us stand back confused and uncertain how to react. Then the armed militia mobs come in handy to crack heads and intimidate opponents -- and at the same time, provide an excuse for declaring martial law in places (or nationwide), impose curfews, ban public gatherings, and use the pretense of authority, assumed or otherwise, to bring in trained, standing police or military forces to assert "order."
The real problem in the near future, assuming the Democrats are unable or unwilling to stymie these subversions, will be for opponents of fascism to have a plan to counter the overthrow of our government from within by organized conspiracists, not necessarily how to defeat amateur crypto-Nazis who want to play with their pop-guns and shoot a few "liberal commies."
I think we're well off planning for nationwide strikes and massive civil disobedience on a Gandhi-level scale. A true million-man/woman march on Washington and encamped there, blocking transportation, isolating a coup leadership, could shut down an illegitimate government.
I think you overestimate the army of Karens that the GOP has become. They're willing to only stake out their territory in the middle of a Kohl's over a mask but nothing more. Jan 6 by comparison was a failure because they got caught by the FBI, who are still hunting them down, assisted by true patriots who can't abide the whining crybabies who yell 'Freedumb' and refuse to get vaccinated because they mistake responsibility with persecution.
I agree. I safely hunker down in my home (from Covid and Omicron) and watch those who drive past on this state highway, men and women going to work to feed their families and do their jobs. I don't know how they all vote, but I would venture to say that every one of them is ARMED with a cell phone these days. That's my own "weapon" of choice. It would take a bunch of drug-souped up Karens with automatic weapons driving up and down this major roadway, shooting at random at all the houses on the several blocks to achieve whatever their goal is - because for the most part, my neighbors and I vote Democratic. We just don't advertise it and the wannabe armed "militia" have no idea who we are, where we live, or how many of us there are. It would be an insurmountable task, even in this small town, to take us all out. And we have cell phones with videos, and wifi and the internet. And we know how to upload our videos to the FBI.
I know this is rather simplistic, but I try to just think of the reasonableness of those threats of violence. I could see them play out in the various Walmarts of this country, as they have already, but since I stay away from places where masses of unvaccinated and unmasked people gather, I worry less about them than I do about ending up in a hospital with no available ICU units for those who have heart attacks or other major life threatening events. That, to me, is the real danger to our safety on this day.
Terrific piece. I agree that an all out civil war is unlikely due to logistical issues like the ones you cite. However these traitors appear to satisfyythemselves with incursions and violent incidents to make their point. They thrive on the publicity.
They are already having an impact all out of proportion to their numbers or activities. They have successfully intimidated elected officials and public servants, they have threatened individuals and groups they don't like. Imagine if a true militant group starts random acts of domestic terrorism -- assassinating certain opponents, blowing up certain targets, setting fires, planting explosives -- an American Provisional IRA as it were. It wouldn't take much of that to cause serious strains at all levels.
Interesting piece which throws water on the next Civil War or - Uncivil War. We have Kooks with AR15s. Suppose a couple of dozen take over the IRS building. The IRS guards fire back and get reinforced. Half of the Kooks are wounded, half dead as local police and other SWAT Teams take careful aim. Hospitals refuse to take them as patients. Each Kook gets 25 years in prison due to felony murder rule. They were able to kill a Guard or two. Americans have jobs to do, kids to raise and bills to pay. Saddling Up to fight SWAT Teams will be a very unwise hobby -- payable by life in prison. Civil War is too hard. Get out and vote or something...!
They just want to be Kyle Rittenhouse for a day and go shoot people who they don't like for whatever dumbass reason - or that crazy couple (fortunately I forget their names) who brandished their weapons at protestors. It's revolting (in the upchuck sense, not in the revolution sense). They don't have something they actually believe in, but are afraid of not being in control. Pathetic.
I was at Camp Buckner, in the same field as you, that same summer after plebe year. Your description of chaos, Buckner-style, is perfect. I remember finding the wadded material from the blanks fired at me, the machine gun emplacements that seemed impossible ever to overrun (our goal), the mind numbing logistics someone undertook to feed and supply our whole class in the field. I resigned from West Point in August 1966, headed for Berkeley, and never looked back. War is not the answer. And the Proud Boys are pretenders and punks.
I love the term Gravy Seals!
The pandemic gave us a breakdown in supply and critical materials. A week of crazed violence throughout the country will cause a sudden and tragic break in the supply chain as trucks on the interstate are easy targets and drivers simply vanish. Within a month most supermarkets would be empty and possibly looted. Every uniformed police officer would be a moving target for all kinds of angry gunmen. With ATM's turned off and the internet disrupted or stopped a nation of web-addicts would be hysterical. After a month with no cellphones or landlines everyone would be miserable as infrastructure stumbles into black outs and serious confusion. And then hunger and desperation sets in. Medical services shattered. Diabetics began to die without medicine, millions become destitute as most business shut down. A civil war like the 1860's was in a largely rural country and the war never really touched the north except for draft riots. The rebels who ever they might be will have to find a way to feed tens of millions or end up being slaughtered by a starving populus.
Yes but there were more more Americans killed in the Civil War than all the other wars that we’ve been involved put together.
This could also play out in winter months (late 2024/early 2025) so add winter storm disruptions to the modifiers. Our supply chain breaks down even now with just a few ice storms or power outages if they go on long enough, let alone a pandemic (and will Covid still be a disruptor in 2024-25 like it is today?)
On the other hand, if all the military might of the USA couldn't defeat either the Vietnamese or the Afghan fighters, how will that same military fare against homegrown armed bands of fanatical Amurrikkkan guerrillas, determined to fight a civil war? This is not a rhetorical question.
It's good to remember the Vietnamese were funded and supplied with advanced military weapons by the USSR and China, while Afghan fighters had their own state sponsor in Iran. I often ask our incipient neo-confederates who they think will sponsor them with credit, money, arms, training, and even fighters. Few of them have even considered what they'll do for logistics and secure communications in a real war environment where their opponent is using air forces to control and destroy transportation, and every electronic communication device they have is jammed.
But this assumes the insurgents are the Trumpies. What happens if the GOP seizes power by hook and by crook and assumes the authorities of all police and military forces (who go along with it because, orders)? Suddenly the disaffected citizens are those opposed to Trumpism. We're not gonna get help from Canada...
I hope you're right. As an insurgent you want to provoke an over-reaction with lots of collateral damage to discredit the authorities, That's easy with the militarized police.
You're right about the risk of militarized police.
I hope you are wrong, but in Amurrika, it's in the blood.
As I understand it, (not that I would know firsthand) training for a war in any context takes time, dedication, intelligence, determination, physical and mental toughness.
The Republicans are real good at talking the talk, but when it comes down to doing what they want, not so much. They're good at cheer leading and armchair quarterbacking and anything that requires them to do physical strain would offend them.
You expect them to do what?
You're right that they won't do anything for a war, because Fox News tells them the lie that it's all won, and they're happy.
Besides, there's a pandemic on. They don't want to bother, it's too much trouble.
Gravy Seals is a good name for them. Most real combat veterans despise them as the people in the VFW halls who boast about their service while in the motor pool.
A lively lovely smackdown of the goofballs that comprise the rightwing (fascist) paramilitary.
You have given us a small taste of how ignorant we civilians are of actual combat and its attendant chaos and confusion. And for that, we thank you, sir.
Finally, some one says it. These gravy seals and other clowns couldn't take over a public toilet. You're right, and it's a shame, the media hype and gnashing of teeth is shameful.
And harmful.
Lucian as usual paints an extremely vivid picture. You feel you are tight there along side him. My army experience by contrast was 32 weeks of infantry training in England. Wales and Scotland. as a private in the British army. serving from 1951 to 1953. We were training at first to be deployed to Hong Kong, but wound up stationed at Edinburgh Castle attached to a Scottish regiment. regiment, Our new destination, Korea. Our orders were changed at the last minute to Egypt and after a few weeks there, there they sent us to Aqaba, Jordan. We heard later that 50% of the Scots we trained with in Edinburgh perished in Korea. While at Edinburgh castle a few of us were recruited to act as medieval soldiers in a play at the Edinburgh festival. The other guys were furious as we were excused all duties for six weeks. A funny sideline for those with curious minds. There was a mirror on the ground by the guard house so the guard on duty could verify that the Scottish soldiers were following the strict dress code, nothing under their kilts. (Maybe I should have said a strict "undress" code :) I have no idea if that is still the case. I'm guessing not. Our final destination was in Goslar, Germany. For recreation we'd go horseback riding and in the winter skiing in the Harz mountains, A couple of years later I wound up in South Africa working in the gold mines,, then the next five years in Southern Rhodesia. But that's another story. I arrived in the US in 1961 working in Yonkers NY for the same company as in Rhodesia, (Now Zimbabwe_, After a second retirement I wound up an extra/actor type in Los Angeles. But at 89 now just avoiding the world at large as an experienced observer of how the fanatical and crazy elements of society have gained dominance over the rest of us. Lucian among others keep us fully informed. But to take your minds off the serious stuff for a moment, Just for fun I put together 3 short videos I participated in as a would-be actor: I play Milton in Milton, the first video, and Milton in the second video, MastrChef Senior with James Corden and Gordon Ramsay, The third video is from College Humor. I hope I haven't bored anyone with my rambling totally off the political subject, but Lucian did write a mostly biographical bit this time. which I know we all enjoy. https://youtu.be/rPkRfVwWBnU
Loved the Ramsay/Corden bit…enjoyable comic relief.
Lucian, Thanks for the Buckner memories. I do not believe democracy is at risk. I do believe we need to hold the play camouflage people accountable.
Yes, it's too hard. I was never in combat but i had the same kind of field training at Ft. Sill, six weeks of it, and learned how to direct artillery fire accurately. But not against living persons, but against burned out trucks and retired tanks and sometimes an old jeep, and none of it was moving or trying to get out of the fire zone. I was good at it, but against such targets, it was hard not to be good at it. And yet when it came time to fire model demonstration missions in front of the entire cadet corps, I was the only one to do it well. Now imagine those were real people, looking for you because you're the most dangerous guy on the battlefield. Forward observers have a life expectancy in combat that is somewhere short of five minutes. Now imagine that it's the U. S. Army you're going up against. You won't have artillery, they will. They'll have weapons the right will not even know about. Some of them will be right wing in their hearts, but they are trained, well trained, to obey orders. The right wing breeds these fantasies, but that's all they are is fantasies. Rhetoric. They can't handle reality, as they demonstrate by believing in someone who is clearly as wrapped up in fantasy land as they are. He, as Lucian says, who cannot be named.
My good friend, a Marine, confirms exactly what you have said.
"You won't have artillery, they will. They'll have weapons the right will not even know about. Some of them will be right wing in their hearts, but they are trained, well trained, to obey orders."
He goes further, saying that if you ("you" as in the right wing believers in fantasy warfare) won't even know what hit you. One minute you'll be playing soldier with your weapon of choice, and the next minute you'll be targeted and gone in a flash.
Hahahaha! "Playing soldier!" That perfectly describes those pseudo-military fantasists. I actually look forward to seeing real soldiers turn those morons into minced meat. Still... let's hope your Marine friend is right and those retired generals were wrong when they suggested that the current military is full of right-wing extremists who will obey t-Rump's orders rather than those of their commanders.
Lucian, I was touched by your account of escorting the widow of a fallen warrior. Thank you as always for sharing your experiences. I live in a peaceful spot along the Eastern Shore. Not so much lately but sometimes the peace is disturbed by two low flying C130 Hercules, usually at night headed into Dover AFB returning fallen troops. I hope you are correct that “its just too hard” to pull the trigger that starts the ball rolling. I’m sure Kyle Rittenhouse saw himself as the hero of the insurrection and is still wondering WTF as he visits Mar a Lago. My fear that there is a tipping point amongst the Right that could cause the fire to spread. I don’t want to get into the logistics of war as I am not x-military. But I do believe that at least in some parts of this country that there is a tinderbox environment ready to erupt into hopefully only localized violence.
I respect this column, it is obviously informed and has a valuable perspective. But I fear it doesn't go outside the box enough. I can imagine several scenarios for "civil war" that don't have to look like a conventional civil war at all. I can easily see an insurrectionary movement developing somewhat like the "troubles" of Northern Ireland. Low-level guerilla/terrorism activity that is bloody, hard to suppress, and results in a loss of many civil liberties. I can also see a "polite" coup done legally by GOP/trumpista operatives who manage to subvert or manipulate election processes -- this is obviously going on right now -- and who then seize power ruthlessly while the rest of us stand back confused and uncertain how to react. Then the armed militia mobs come in handy to crack heads and intimidate opponents -- and at the same time, provide an excuse for declaring martial law in places (or nationwide), impose curfews, ban public gatherings, and use the pretense of authority, assumed or otherwise, to bring in trained, standing police or military forces to assert "order."
The real problem in the near future, assuming the Democrats are unable or unwilling to stymie these subversions, will be for opponents of fascism to have a plan to counter the overthrow of our government from within by organized conspiracists, not necessarily how to defeat amateur crypto-Nazis who want to play with their pop-guns and shoot a few "liberal commies."
I think we're well off planning for nationwide strikes and massive civil disobedience on a Gandhi-level scale. A true million-man/woman march on Washington and encamped there, blocking transportation, isolating a coup leadership, could shut down an illegitimate government.
I think you overestimate the army of Karens that the GOP has become. They're willing to only stake out their territory in the middle of a Kohl's over a mask but nothing more. Jan 6 by comparison was a failure because they got caught by the FBI, who are still hunting them down, assisted by true patriots who can't abide the whining crybabies who yell 'Freedumb' and refuse to get vaccinated because they mistake responsibility with persecution.
I agree. I safely hunker down in my home (from Covid and Omicron) and watch those who drive past on this state highway, men and women going to work to feed their families and do their jobs. I don't know how they all vote, but I would venture to say that every one of them is ARMED with a cell phone these days. That's my own "weapon" of choice. It would take a bunch of drug-souped up Karens with automatic weapons driving up and down this major roadway, shooting at random at all the houses on the several blocks to achieve whatever their goal is - because for the most part, my neighbors and I vote Democratic. We just don't advertise it and the wannabe armed "militia" have no idea who we are, where we live, or how many of us there are. It would be an insurmountable task, even in this small town, to take us all out. And we have cell phones with videos, and wifi and the internet. And we know how to upload our videos to the FBI.
I know this is rather simplistic, but I try to just think of the reasonableness of those threats of violence. I could see them play out in the various Walmarts of this country, as they have already, but since I stay away from places where masses of unvaccinated and unmasked people gather, I worry less about them than I do about ending up in a hospital with no available ICU units for those who have heart attacks or other major life threatening events. That, to me, is the real danger to our safety on this day.
Terrific piece. I agree that an all out civil war is unlikely due to logistical issues like the ones you cite. However these traitors appear to satisfyythemselves with incursions and violent incidents to make their point. They thrive on the publicity.
They are already having an impact all out of proportion to their numbers or activities. They have successfully intimidated elected officials and public servants, they have threatened individuals and groups they don't like. Imagine if a true militant group starts random acts of domestic terrorism -- assassinating certain opponents, blowing up certain targets, setting fires, planting explosives -- an American Provisional IRA as it were. It wouldn't take much of that to cause serious strains at all levels.
VOTE PLEASE!!!
Interesting piece which throws water on the next Civil War or - Uncivil War. We have Kooks with AR15s. Suppose a couple of dozen take over the IRS building. The IRS guards fire back and get reinforced. Half of the Kooks are wounded, half dead as local police and other SWAT Teams take careful aim. Hospitals refuse to take them as patients. Each Kook gets 25 years in prison due to felony murder rule. They were able to kill a Guard or two. Americans have jobs to do, kids to raise and bills to pay. Saddling Up to fight SWAT Teams will be a very unwise hobby -- payable by life in prison. Civil War is too hard. Get out and vote or something...!