So far, it’s only symbolic, but the horrific war criminal Vladimir Putin has finally been officially accused of the horrific war crime of abducting children from their families in Ukraine and shipping them off to Russia. It’s bad enough that Putin’s army has killed thousands of Ukrainian soldiers and civilians, but apparently at the Hague, kidnapping children is taking his war to an unacceptable level.
Totally symbolic gesture, but at least Putin has completed his transition to a worldwide pariah, not that he cares as long as his wealth and power in Russia remain intact.
I do hear strains of “Ode to Joy” in the air. Also in the air...Happy St. Patrick’s Day to all Irish and Irish wannabes today. Hoping the luck of the Irish holds for TFG as well...either with the ICC or NYC!
Maybe he should start wearing gloves. Besides the ICC arrest warrant I hear his personal caterer isn't so popular at the Kremlin anymore and you never know where Novichok can wind up.
Lucian, of course you know " countries which recognize the ICC’s authority, which is the entire rest of the civilized world, minus" UNITED STATES of AMERICA. Why no mention? Not like you!
There's always the legal loophole/dodge. This is just another rules-lawyer excuse for the USA to lecture to the rest of the world about "Do what I say, not what I do." I want the international rules to apply equally equally to all.
All well and good. It's just a shame the USA is not a signatory to the ICC. The US refuses to place its own forces under any international protocols concerning war crimes. So this reeks a little of hypocrisy, because in a "Justice is blind" world, Bush II and his administration would *also* be under indictment for the crime of launching a war of aggression.
Yes, Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld should have faced a firing squad. I just don’t think Bush had as many evil thoughts as Rummy and the Dick. Bush said he was avenging his dad but Rum and Dick saw great opportunities to spread lies. Not only that, they attacked Iraq when the 9/11 perpetrators were from Afghanistan.
The irony of an international body identifying a foreign leader and indicting him as a war criminal had the perverse effect of endowing them with the due process rights that now require an enormous effort on the part of those who are tasked with enforcing international criminal law to overcome the hurdles that due process of law, by its very nature, erects to protect the rights of the accused. Whether it was Slobodan Milosevic, former Yugoslav president, who died of a heart attack in his prison cell in the Hague, Netherlands, before his four-year trial for war crimes could come to a formal judgment against him, convicting him of crimes against humanity, or any of the other lesser individuals charged under international law for lesser war crimes, the international community has basically hamstrung itself in achieving basic justice against despotic and arbitrary rulers. Witness the ongoing circus here in America over whether to try Donald Trump for the crimes that he committed in the run up to and his tenure during the last presidential administration. This is truly getting ourselves wrapped around the axle.
The Nuremberg war crimes trials lasting from November 1945 to October 1946 lasted approximately 11 months, bringing together 22 defendants, convicted 19, of whom 12 were sentenced to death. The fact that these trials were essentially ad hoc and sui generis meant that the defendants were unable to devise an employee delaying tactics that would allow them to escape judgment, and the ultimate fate that those judgments embodied. That's the good part. The bad part is that once the notion that war crimes were triable, and that the tribunal judgments could be enforced, the governments of the world instinctively banded together to ensure that the procedural niceties of criminal trials would need to be observed to the punctilio. Even if Vladimir Putin were to be arrested tomorrow morning, the likelihood that he would face trial and eventual judgment in the international Court of Justice would probably mean that judgment would be pronounced maybe in seven or eight years. Being confined to a jail cell in the Hague might not be pleasant, but it certainly beats being shot in the back of the head by the GRU, or some other sordid and gruesome way of dealing with a failed dictator and tyrant.
Then there's the matter of dealing with Putin's army of collaborators, co-conspirators, allies, and assorted hangers on. Needless to say, the next Russian leader would be quick to hire the last bunch of guys who work for Putin, because they know where the bathroom key is. All would bow to kiss the ring and swear allegiance to the new leader, and things would go on as before, much the way Nikolai Bulganin and Nikita Khrushchev succeeded to the Soviet leadership after the death of Joseph Stalin. So far as I can tell, the only immediate casualty was Lavrentiy Beria, Stalin's much-feared chief of the NKVD, the Soviet secret police. That's what happens when you have dirt on everybody. Of course Stalin's successors could not allow him to live.
On the other hand, whoever is Vladimir Putin's head of the Russian Federation's secret police might be looking for a way to buy a small, out-of-the-way house in, say, Los Angeles, where he can live under an assumed name, and hope that none of his neighbors would take any particular interest in him. That's the thing about America, or at least California, where live and let live is part of our cultural creed. Vladimir Putin might get find himself in some sort of limbo in a well appointed jail cell in the Hague, but his erstwhile Chief of Police would be able to invest in a chain of fast food restaurants in Southern California, with no one the wiser (see, movie Reds 2) and live out the American dream.
This would be a lot more meaningful if the USA was a card carrying member of the ICC. As it is the big powers are allowed to continue their atrocities.
Over the past 32+ years the PRC has been ascendant and Russia descendent.
Would be foolish for the PRC to allow Putin/Ru's dead weight to impede its strategic agenda.
On the surface it may appear to some the PRC would like to see the west tied up in all-things Uk, they forget the PRC knows the west remains far more powerful militarily, economically, and diplomatically than the PRC and any alliances it can currently muster. By a lot.
Ru latest "special military operation" strengthened western resolve to a common cause. That's not something the PRC wanted to see. Wouldn't be at all surprised if privately Xi scolds Putin while publicly proclaiming Putin is his BFF. If anything, PRC would love their own puppet in Moscow.
Speaking of "a truncated life," as Mr. T. does, I'd think by now he should have been truncated out of existence. He was reportedly being followed around by a doctor specializing in thyroid cancer. Then there was video evidence of his reported Parkinson's. Remember him gripping a table so his tremors would not be visible? Stumbling down stairs? Of course there's been talk of his double - just like in Hollywood, for stunts - so why not assume he's gone already, but the wretched regime continues without him ... but just as he'd want it? With Putin living or dead, the people of his country are in the same bind. And so are we. They need a revolution over there. (Another one.) What I fear most, however, is that it will be our country where the revolution takes place, and that could very well feel as though Putin still walked among the living. Nostrovia.
Loathsome creature. At least he'll have to spend the rest of his miserable life inside the borders of his imagined empire, always looking over his shoulder...
Now do Trump, ICC.
And Jeff Sessions.
Damn right 👍
Put a stake in his heart before putting him in the ground ... just in case.
Totally symbolic gesture, but at least Putin has completed his transition to a worldwide pariah, not that he cares as long as his wealth and power in Russia remain intact.
I do hear strains of “Ode to Joy” in the air. Also in the air...Happy St. Patrick’s Day to all Irish and Irish wannabes today. Hoping the luck of the Irish holds for TFG as well...either with the ICC or NYC!
Happy St. Patrick’s Day to all from a retired Irish stepdancer.
I’m not sure but wasn’t an arrest warrant out out for Bush II and Cheney for their war crimes? Which is why they haven’t left the US?
Maybe he should start wearing gloves. Besides the ICC arrest warrant I hear his personal caterer isn't so popular at the Kremlin anymore and you never know where Novichok can wind up.
It's a start.
Can we get them to do Dick Cheney?
Good news!
Lucian, of course you know " countries which recognize the ICC’s authority, which is the entire rest of the civilized world, minus" UNITED STATES of AMERICA. Why no mention? Not like you!
It’s complicated. But there are legal/Constitutional reasons:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_International_Criminal_Court#:~:text=Incompatibility%20with%20the%20U.S.%20Constitution,-The%20Heritage%20Foundation&text=United%20States%20participation%20in%20the,power%20of%20the%20United%20States
There's always the legal loophole/dodge. This is just another rules-lawyer excuse for the USA to lecture to the rest of the world about "Do what I say, not what I do." I want the international rules to apply equally equally to all.
True that…
Lucian, What gives here? This would seem to be a reasonable question and one that needs answering.
Love to get Lucian’s take too.
There are plenty of columns, from Obama pulling troops in Iraq because America wouldn’t allow Iraqi courts to try American servicemen.
To trumps pardoning a murder of an Iraqi teenage girl convicted in American courts.
My take, America is to powerful! The short answer.
P.S. the American military is disciplined.
All well and good. It's just a shame the USA is not a signatory to the ICC. The US refuses to place its own forces under any international protocols concerning war crimes. So this reeks a little of hypocrisy, because in a "Justice is blind" world, Bush II and his administration would *also* be under indictment for the crime of launching a war of aggression.
Yes, Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld should have faced a firing squad. I just don’t think Bush had as many evil thoughts as Rummy and the Dick. Bush said he was avenging his dad but Rum and Dick saw great opportunities to spread lies. Not only that, they attacked Iraq when the 9/11 perpetrators were from Afghanistan.
The irony of an international body identifying a foreign leader and indicting him as a war criminal had the perverse effect of endowing them with the due process rights that now require an enormous effort on the part of those who are tasked with enforcing international criminal law to overcome the hurdles that due process of law, by its very nature, erects to protect the rights of the accused. Whether it was Slobodan Milosevic, former Yugoslav president, who died of a heart attack in his prison cell in the Hague, Netherlands, before his four-year trial for war crimes could come to a formal judgment against him, convicting him of crimes against humanity, or any of the other lesser individuals charged under international law for lesser war crimes, the international community has basically hamstrung itself in achieving basic justice against despotic and arbitrary rulers. Witness the ongoing circus here in America over whether to try Donald Trump for the crimes that he committed in the run up to and his tenure during the last presidential administration. This is truly getting ourselves wrapped around the axle.
The Nuremberg war crimes trials lasting from November 1945 to October 1946 lasted approximately 11 months, bringing together 22 defendants, convicted 19, of whom 12 were sentenced to death. The fact that these trials were essentially ad hoc and sui generis meant that the defendants were unable to devise an employee delaying tactics that would allow them to escape judgment, and the ultimate fate that those judgments embodied. That's the good part. The bad part is that once the notion that war crimes were triable, and that the tribunal judgments could be enforced, the governments of the world instinctively banded together to ensure that the procedural niceties of criminal trials would need to be observed to the punctilio. Even if Vladimir Putin were to be arrested tomorrow morning, the likelihood that he would face trial and eventual judgment in the international Court of Justice would probably mean that judgment would be pronounced maybe in seven or eight years. Being confined to a jail cell in the Hague might not be pleasant, but it certainly beats being shot in the back of the head by the GRU, or some other sordid and gruesome way of dealing with a failed dictator and tyrant.
Then there's the matter of dealing with Putin's army of collaborators, co-conspirators, allies, and assorted hangers on. Needless to say, the next Russian leader would be quick to hire the last bunch of guys who work for Putin, because they know where the bathroom key is. All would bow to kiss the ring and swear allegiance to the new leader, and things would go on as before, much the way Nikolai Bulganin and Nikita Khrushchev succeeded to the Soviet leadership after the death of Joseph Stalin. So far as I can tell, the only immediate casualty was Lavrentiy Beria, Stalin's much-feared chief of the NKVD, the Soviet secret police. That's what happens when you have dirt on everybody. Of course Stalin's successors could not allow him to live.
On the other hand, whoever is Vladimir Putin's head of the Russian Federation's secret police might be looking for a way to buy a small, out-of-the-way house in, say, Los Angeles, where he can live under an assumed name, and hope that none of his neighbors would take any particular interest in him. That's the thing about America, or at least California, where live and let live is part of our cultural creed. Vladimir Putin might get find himself in some sort of limbo in a well appointed jail cell in the Hague, but his erstwhile Chief of Police would be able to invest in a chain of fast food restaurants in Southern California, with no one the wiser (see, movie Reds 2) and live out the American dream.
This would be a lot more meaningful if the USA was a card carrying member of the ICC. As it is the big powers are allowed to continue their atrocities.
Symbolic, but do you think it could make the Chinese think twice about jumping into bed with him.
Over the past 32+ years the PRC has been ascendant and Russia descendent.
Would be foolish for the PRC to allow Putin/Ru's dead weight to impede its strategic agenda.
On the surface it may appear to some the PRC would like to see the west tied up in all-things Uk, they forget the PRC knows the west remains far more powerful militarily, economically, and diplomatically than the PRC and any alliances it can currently muster. By a lot.
Ru latest "special military operation" strengthened western resolve to a common cause. That's not something the PRC wanted to see. Wouldn't be at all surprised if privately Xi scolds Putin while publicly proclaiming Putin is his BFF. If anything, PRC would love their own puppet in Moscow.
Speaking of "a truncated life," as Mr. T. does, I'd think by now he should have been truncated out of existence. He was reportedly being followed around by a doctor specializing in thyroid cancer. Then there was video evidence of his reported Parkinson's. Remember him gripping a table so his tremors would not be visible? Stumbling down stairs? Of course there's been talk of his double - just like in Hollywood, for stunts - so why not assume he's gone already, but the wretched regime continues without him ... but just as he'd want it? With Putin living or dead, the people of his country are in the same bind. And so are we. They need a revolution over there. (Another one.) What I fear most, however, is that it will be our country where the revolution takes place, and that could very well feel as though Putin still walked among the living. Nostrovia.
Loathsome creature. At least he'll have to spend the rest of his miserable life inside the borders of his imagined empire, always looking over his shoulder...
Maybe one day an elite military unit can spirit him away and bring him to justice, a la Eichmann.
Yea well nice to think about anyway…
For that to happen, alaEichmann, we’d need the help of a lot of Israelis, and I doubt that Netanyahu would approve.
Wouldn’t that be wonderful? I hope it would be the rebellious residents who then would drag him into the street and hang him. He deserves no less.