Somehow, it is hard to believe that Trump won't just die and go to hell before all this is settled. Either way depending on your beliefs, we will be done with him. It would be interesting to know if the DOJ has been through all the documents and determined if there are any uncovered classified documents stuffed in among the "newspaper clippings". Not sure why someone would keep newspaper clippings with everything being online, but that's another issue. In any event I just have this image stuck in my mind of Trump going through the folders and how someone like him might remove information from them and have no interest in putting it back. I also imagine that if he was going to give it away to someone or digitize it (he would need help for that) that he would remove the cover first. I just have to believe that there are other people involved who enabled him either while he was in the White House or later at Mar A logo. Sad thing here is that I feel like I am becoming a conspiracy theorist and it sucks a bit.
Except we probably won't be done with his MAGA cult followers. His demise will be spun into a conspiracy of monumental proportions, the usual suspects will be accused of murdering him, and his imminent second coming will be predicted.
"Ron Canazzi surveys the history of large-scale conspiracies in the United States and, with that as background, provides an introduction to the evidence of the assassinations of the Sixties with respect to possibility that dozens of individuals could have participated in these plots."
And remember, the plot that eventually led to President Lincoln's killing by Booth involved a wide array of conspirators, as well as the plot that led to Julius Caesar's death.
In the JFK case, there are still over 14,000 related documents still kept secret; President Biden has a deadline to meet of December 15, 2022. Trump twice violated the mandate to release these documents, with any suitable redactions proved necessary after all of these nearly fifty-nine years.
Remember also that when the claim is made that "the CIA did it (killed JFK)" there are implied ancillary premises, since clearly not all of the several thousand CIA employees and officials in each and every branch would be in on any putative plot. "Rogue elements" is more like.
Back to Trump: some documents of that kind (still suppressed JFK documents) are just the kind of material a kook like Trump would steal just to "show off."
*Rump hasn’t gotten beyond “press clippings” because he doesn’t/can’t use a computer to get online to search, store, or print them. He can tweet, but I doubt he can send an email. There’s ample evidence that he’s functionally illiterate, probably dyslexic, and has been all his life.
OMG. Trump's lawyers are horrified that the special master is asking them to be reasonably upfront about what they're asking for. Squawk squawk squawk!! And to do it well before the midterms. SQUAWK!!! This is turning out to be a lot more fun than I expected.
Classified documents are relevant here because Judge Cannon blocked their use by the DOJ in Trump criminal investigation, and DOJ has appealed this decision to the Circuit Court of Appeals. They need the documents to prosecute Trump under the Espionage Act which deals with "national defense information" which the classified documents certainly are.
So, tRump was caught with classified documents, and the DOJ is indicting him for stealing those classified documents but tRump insists he declassified them however none of the documents have any official declassification markings so tRump's judge will not allow the DOJ to officially look at the records to prove they ARE classified but NOT declassified and instead ordains a special master to look at them but when he looks at them and finds no declassification markings he tells tRump to prove he declassified them and nowhere at NARA is there any declassification evidence and until 2 days ago tRump didn't realize his magic declassification wand wasn't working so now the judge essentially has ruled that you can't indict tRump for stealing classified documents because DOJ is not allowed to look at the documents to see if they are classified or not? I pity the junior high American History student who gets this question on an exam.
Delay, obfuscate, bully, wheedle, bribe, tamper with witnesses, destroy evidence, declare bankruptcy, shield assets, reach a settlement without admitting culpability, but that was part of Trump's madcap path in civil litigations, it's much riskier when felony indictments and possible prison terms are at stake.
My understanding is that the classification status goes solely to DOJ's request for the stay of Cannon's order regarding the 100-or-so-out-of-thousands specific - classified - documents, for the purpose of assessing potential damage to NatSec. There's no basis for the stay, as requested, if the documents aren't, in fact, classified (of course, they are, and therefore assumed to have grave NatSec considerations, including life and safety of human sources).
Don't forget, TFG was hired because he hated governance. He chose watching Fox and Friends in the morning rather than sit in on the daily intel briefing. Reading what Lucian just wrote would have blown our hero's brain to bits.
You’re right. He could have just let them have the classified docs, and then been indicted quickly. I think the idea here, for him, is to drag the process along. I’m guessing he knows an indictment is nigh and wants to obfuscate and delay as long as possible, regardless of how stupid that actually is.
Can anyone else confirm? Whilst studying 20th century/modern Asian history, I stumbled onto a declassified document in a university’s archives. My memory ain’t that great, but I recall this Korean War era report was stamped; something to the effect of its being declassified, signed (blue ink) with a date. Does that ring any bells? Wouldn’t Trump’s. “declassified” docs have to go through some kind of procedure to produce the same kind of imprint on their faces?
Lucian touches on that in this column, and others have written similarly: "If they had been declassified, the documents themselves would have markings declaring them to be 'declassified.' None of the documents seized from Mar a Lago or turned over to the National Archives or to the DOJ have such markings."
Regarding, “But he had no knowledge of what is involved in declassifying information because he had never formally done so.” Suggest he had “some knowledge” of what’s involved. Most of us could say we know enough to realize declassification requires others’ involvement and is a drawn out process. So grateful your forthright writing. (Ready anytime for more Big Chicken.)
Allegedly one of the first major warning signs was that Trump PHYSICALLY attacked his own music teacher, in front of the rest of the elementary grade class!
Talk about tfg's attorneys twisting themselves into pretzels arguing they need to see the documents, tfg declassified them, but... the attorneys need to get top secret clearance to view said "declassified" documents. If you haven't already read it, go back to Mary Pat Sercu's comment above that begins: "So tRump was caught with classified documents.....". It's a beauty.
I haven't yet turned on my TV so I don't know what has transpired today with the Circuit Court or with Dearie's meeting. I hope both do the "right thing." We're due.
From the start Mr. Trump has never intended to cooperate with any court or to recognize the authority of AG Garland. His only plan is a public spectacle to whip up the crowd and hustle everyone for money. Judge Cannon's job was to boot the DOJ and declare Trump forever immune to prosecution. Trump wants high drama without consequence. The Special Master will get nothing, and Trump will fire him if he can. Did Mr. Trump sell or give documents to someone? Probably not, even Russians know better than upset the US Government. In the end all of this is theater for Trump, jack up everyone and make money from desperate fund-raising emails. The grift never ends.
I am not at all sure that the Russians “know better than to upset the US Government.” It seems to me that’s one of the things the Russians take the most delight in doing.
I hope it is not the legal version of "I can shoot somebody on Fifth Ave" but actual lawyers apparently see it that way. Wowza is a slight understatement for me.
Deflating, no? Probably why capital punishment was the chosen solution until recently. Dead men (and women) tell no tales, nor state secrets. And are seldom ever elected.
I read the article, which goes into detail about the limits of any law devised by Congress to with-hold elective public office from felons and the like, not to mention the difficulties of "work-arounds" such as plea bargains with "deals" etc..
I submit that the Framers never once imagined such miscreants as Trump having the shameless gall to even try for an elective office and, even if they did have such imaginations...immediately comforted themselves with the notion that the public wouldn't--couldn't--possibly stand for it.
I think we all find ourselves wishing that the Framers HAD conceived of such an affront to decency and had made some preventative provisions.
*Rump has painted himself into many corners before and escaped through a mouse hole somehow. He’s gotten so big now we can hope he can no longer find a hole big enough. His usual techniques of delay, distract, deflect may still work up to a point. He needs time to hide all the grifted money he’s gotten because he won’t be able to use it for his campaign, if he ever intended to, and he probably thinks that once he declares his candidacy he’ll be immune to prosecution. He’s good at razzle-dazzle, and manipulating the media, but all his usual drama might not work this time. He has more lives than a herd of cats. The appeals court decision will be an important turning point, one way or another. He has to be stopped. Increasingly it doesn’t matter which prosecution does it, and there’s always hope for an interference by providence.
Once tfg declares himself a candidate, he can't use the PAC money for anything other than strictly election campaign related expenses. I don't know about the "Stop the Steal" Defense Funds or any of his other grifted funds,
So he may not be that anxious to declare his candidacy--if he, in actual fact, ever intended to. ( a probable yes, if he could be assured that the fix was in and there was no danger of losing....)
Somehow, it is hard to believe that Trump won't just die and go to hell before all this is settled. Either way depending on your beliefs, we will be done with him. It would be interesting to know if the DOJ has been through all the documents and determined if there are any uncovered classified documents stuffed in among the "newspaper clippings". Not sure why someone would keep newspaper clippings with everything being online, but that's another issue. In any event I just have this image stuck in my mind of Trump going through the folders and how someone like him might remove information from them and have no interest in putting it back. I also imagine that if he was going to give it away to someone or digitize it (he would need help for that) that he would remove the cover first. I just have to believe that there are other people involved who enabled him either while he was in the White House or later at Mar A logo. Sad thing here is that I feel like I am becoming a conspiracy theorist and it sucks a bit.
Except we probably won't be done with his MAGA cult followers. His demise will be spun into a conspiracy of monumental proportions, the usual suspects will be accused of murdering him, and his imminent second coming will be predicted.
Yes, that sounds like a plausible hypothesis.
www.kennedysandking.com/articles/so-what-about-this-conspiracy-business-anyway
"Ron Canazzi surveys the history of large-scale conspiracies in the United States and, with that as background, provides an introduction to the evidence of the assassinations of the Sixties with respect to possibility that dozens of individuals could have participated in these plots."
And remember, the plot that eventually led to President Lincoln's killing by Booth involved a wide array of conspirators, as well as the plot that led to Julius Caesar's death.
In the JFK case, there are still over 14,000 related documents still kept secret; President Biden has a deadline to meet of December 15, 2022. Trump twice violated the mandate to release these documents, with any suitable redactions proved necessary after all of these nearly fifty-nine years.
Remember also that when the claim is made that "the CIA did it (killed JFK)" there are implied ancillary premises, since clearly not all of the several thousand CIA employees and officials in each and every branch would be in on any putative plot. "Rogue elements" is more like.
Back to Trump: some documents of that kind (still suppressed JFK documents) are just the kind of material a kook like Trump would steal just to "show off."
*Rump hasn’t gotten beyond “press clippings” because he doesn’t/can’t use a computer to get online to search, store, or print them. He can tweet, but I doubt he can send an email. There’s ample evidence that he’s functionally illiterate, probably dyslexic, and has been all his life.
Q Anon lurks.
OMG. Trump's lawyers are horrified that the special master is asking them to be reasonably upfront about what they're asking for. Squawk squawk squawk!! And to do it well before the midterms. SQUAWK!!! This is turning out to be a lot more fun than I expected.
"Trump’s big problem is that he wanted secrets, not public information, because secrets have value that publicly available information does not. "
yes, LKTIV,
i think you nailed the essence of this whole ongoing issue right there.
trump relishes the fact that he knows something others don't, assuaging his limply inflated ego.
as well of course, he very much sees value in holding sway over others with a secret, or of course selling the prized info.
I thought classification was irrelevant. The documents belong to NARA classified or not right? What is going on here?
Classified documents are relevant here because Judge Cannon blocked their use by the DOJ in Trump criminal investigation, and DOJ has appealed this decision to the Circuit Court of Appeals. They need the documents to prosecute Trump under the Espionage Act which deals with "national defense information" which the classified documents certainly are.
So, tRump was caught with classified documents, and the DOJ is indicting him for stealing those classified documents but tRump insists he declassified them however none of the documents have any official declassification markings so tRump's judge will not allow the DOJ to officially look at the records to prove they ARE classified but NOT declassified and instead ordains a special master to look at them but when he looks at them and finds no declassification markings he tells tRump to prove he declassified them and nowhere at NARA is there any declassification evidence and until 2 days ago tRump didn't realize his magic declassification wand wasn't working so now the judge essentially has ruled that you can't indict tRump for stealing classified documents because DOJ is not allowed to look at the documents to see if they are classified or not? I pity the junior high American History student who gets this question on an exam.
That reads like the Tik Tok dog goofing on it's master. Bravo!
Well done!
The Delay, of course.
Delay, obfuscate, bully, wheedle, bribe, tamper with witnesses, destroy evidence, declare bankruptcy, shield assets, reach a settlement without admitting culpability, but that was part of Trump's madcap path in civil litigations, it's much riskier when felony indictments and possible prison terms are at stake.
Isn't that like a judge saying you can't use the bloody fingerprinted knife in the murder investigation?
My understanding is that the classification status goes solely to DOJ's request for the stay of Cannon's order regarding the 100-or-so-out-of-thousands specific - classified - documents, for the purpose of assessing potential damage to NatSec. There's no basis for the stay, as requested, if the documents aren't, in fact, classified (of course, they are, and therefore assumed to have grave NatSec considerations, including life and safety of human sources).
News Flash...TFG on the way to Puerto Rico in a KC-135 full of paper towels!
Don't forget, TFG was hired because he hated governance. He chose watching Fox and Friends in the morning rather than sit in on the daily intel briefing. Reading what Lucian just wrote would have blown our hero's brain to bits.
You’re right. He could have just let them have the classified docs, and then been indicted quickly. I think the idea here, for him, is to drag the process along. I’m guessing he knows an indictment is nigh and wants to obfuscate and delay as long as possible, regardless of how stupid that actually is.
Can anyone else confirm? Whilst studying 20th century/modern Asian history, I stumbled onto a declassified document in a university’s archives. My memory ain’t that great, but I recall this Korean War era report was stamped; something to the effect of its being declassified, signed (blue ink) with a date. Does that ring any bells? Wouldn’t Trump’s. “declassified” docs have to go through some kind of procedure to produce the same kind of imprint on their faces?
Lucian touches on that in this column, and others have written similarly: "If they had been declassified, the documents themselves would have markings declaring them to be 'declassified.' None of the documents seized from Mar a Lago or turned over to the National Archives or to the DOJ have such markings."
Regarding, “But he had no knowledge of what is involved in declassifying information because he had never formally done so.” Suggest he had “some knowledge” of what’s involved. Most of us could say we know enough to realize declassification requires others’ involvement and is a drawn out process. So grateful your forthright writing. (Ready anytime for more Big Chicken.)
I wish trump no good luck. He’s gotten away with too much all his life. Time for luck of any sort to end.
Allegedly one of the first major warning signs was that Trump PHYSICALLY attacked his own music teacher, in front of the rest of the elementary grade class!
For anyone with the time and inclination, Politico's legal maven is live-tweeting Dearie proceedings: https://twitter.com/joshgerstein
Talk about tfg's attorneys twisting themselves into pretzels arguing they need to see the documents, tfg declassified them, but... the attorneys need to get top secret clearance to view said "declassified" documents. If you haven't already read it, go back to Mary Pat Sercu's comment above that begins: "So tRump was caught with classified documents.....". It's a beauty.
Too funny, Judith!! If anybody's having a hard time finding the comment, it's a reply in a thread runfastandwin started.
Thanks Judith. And Thank God for Judge Dearie.
I haven't yet turned on my TV so I don't know what has transpired today with the Circuit Court or with Dearie's meeting. I hope both do the "right thing." We're due.
From the start Mr. Trump has never intended to cooperate with any court or to recognize the authority of AG Garland. His only plan is a public spectacle to whip up the crowd and hustle everyone for money. Judge Cannon's job was to boot the DOJ and declare Trump forever immune to prosecution. Trump wants high drama without consequence. The Special Master will get nothing, and Trump will fire him if he can. Did Mr. Trump sell or give documents to someone? Probably not, even Russians know better than upset the US Government. In the end all of this is theater for Trump, jack up everyone and make money from desperate fund-raising emails. The grift never ends.
I am not at all sure that the Russians “know better than to upset the US Government.” It seems to me that’s one of the things the Russians take the most delight in doing.
Agree
You might find this interesting in light of the mention of indictment(s). https://www.lawfareblog.com/not-panacea-trump-disqualification-and-plea-bargains
Wowza, I sure am not happy with those scenarios!
I hope it is not the legal version of "I can shoot somebody on Fifth Ave" but actual lawyers apparently see it that way. Wowza is a slight understatement for me.
Deflating, no? Probably why capital punishment was the chosen solution until recently. Dead men (and women) tell no tales, nor state secrets. And are seldom ever elected.
I read the article, which goes into detail about the limits of any law devised by Congress to with-hold elective public office from felons and the like, not to mention the difficulties of "work-arounds" such as plea bargains with "deals" etc..
I submit that the Framers never once imagined such miscreants as Trump having the shameless gall to even try for an elective office and, even if they did have such imaginations...immediately comforted themselves with the notion that the public wouldn't--couldn't--possibly stand for it.
I think we all find ourselves wishing that the Framers HAD conceived of such an affront to decency and had made some preventative provisions.
Yes, exactly.
Has Trump’s superpower of lying finally come face to face with the green kryptonite?
From your lips to God’s ear.
*Rump has painted himself into many corners before and escaped through a mouse hole somehow. He’s gotten so big now we can hope he can no longer find a hole big enough. His usual techniques of delay, distract, deflect may still work up to a point. He needs time to hide all the grifted money he’s gotten because he won’t be able to use it for his campaign, if he ever intended to, and he probably thinks that once he declares his candidacy he’ll be immune to prosecution. He’s good at razzle-dazzle, and manipulating the media, but all his usual drama might not work this time. He has more lives than a herd of cats. The appeals court decision will be an important turning point, one way or another. He has to be stopped. Increasingly it doesn’t matter which prosecution does it, and there’s always hope for an interference by providence.
Once tfg declares himself a candidate, he can't use the PAC money for anything other than strictly election campaign related expenses. I don't know about the "Stop the Steal" Defense Funds or any of his other grifted funds,
So he may not be that anxious to declare his candidacy--if he, in actual fact, ever intended to. ( a probable yes, if he could be assured that the fix was in and there was no danger of losing....)