We are talking here of the explosion at the Al-Ahli hospital that took place on October 17, and the bombing of a Hamas tunnel complex inside the Jabalia refugee camp in Gaza yesterday.
There is an emotional cost to writing these stories. You and I handle it differently. You write the truth and I turn terrifying things into comedy. It's a coping mechanism. But there is always a cost. Always.
Lucian and Tracy, I want to thank you for taking on this grim task. Your physical description of everything really helps me understand what happened. One sentence really grabbed my attention “It appears that the men at the top right are standing atop the ruin of a building.” Along with the photograph of all the people standing amongst the ruins. These are people just like you and me. Another reminder that all we hold dear can be gone in the blink of an eye.
Having seen what has occurred since 10/7, I refuse to believe that this was the best or only way to take down the men who planned and executed the slaughter on that date. The emotional cost to following this war is knowing that as well as what we can do to stop it from happening again. And I feel pretty incompetent redrawing the second part of that statement.
The Israelis are experts at locating and neutralizing important players. They have not lost that expertise. This is obviously an effort to attempt to defer additional retaliation and it will not work. The Israelis are clearly losing the PR battle and the demise of Bibi will be soon. It they took their time to eliminate the Hamas leadership, they could have done that. Israelis are experts at finding and neutralizing the leaders. The lsraeli leadership is making gross errors. They will lose in the public opinion arena. The social media by the Palestinains has squashed the public relations effort of the Israelis. Watch social media. They war winning the hearts of our younger citizens. When terrorists attack India at Mumbai, the Indians chose not to retaliate because the event demonstarted the atrotious and willful attack by the Pakistinis. The world saw the act as terrorism and sympathized with the Indians. A rebuttal would have detracted from the event and India won the PR and as such, won the hearts and minds of the world. That may have been the way to deal with these situations. The Jews are so used to being persecuted that they were compelled to act. A pause to think the matter through may have been a better approach to how to handle the situation. The Jews have been persecuted so often and for so long that their mindset was to seek immediate revenge. GWB did the same after 9/11. We gained nothing except a bunch of American lives owing to the guidance of Cheney. What is the right way? I am beginning to believe that an immediate response in the long run is not a good tactic. Gen McChrystal agrees. There is never a good way to handle these attacks, but what Bibi is doing is a disaster and I hope Biden does not allow any missteps. We need a good seasoned approach. We cannot allow Israel to drag us into sending our sons into war. I was in Vietnam and that was a clusterfuck owing to our politicians and poor politician guidance. American have a very short attention span.
Q1: I refuse to believe that this was the best or only way to take down the men who planned and executed the slaughter on that date.
Re: best and only. Violence is the worst way and least lasting. The best way is the oldest of ways, expulsion and exile. Israel/IDF can't do that, only Gazans of goodwill can. Up to this moment, they have chosen unwisely.
Not only will Gazans of goodwill have to live with having kin who slaughtered and butchered babies, raped young gurlz, dismembered and burned adults, they will have to live with those barbarians among them while they watch their friends and family members pay the price for the deeds of others. There are many forms of survivor's guilt. These will haunt their souls forever. Many will later admit they woulda preferred death.
Q2: emotional cost
Some is due to the piss-poor reporting. How many times was it said an incursion was imminent? The same or more times than another oft repeated falsehood of Israel is constantly bombarding Gaza? The same or more times than there is no safe place in Gaza? If Israel was constantly bombarding Gaza the death toll of civs would be 100 or more times the actual number (whatever that is). Same with no safe places.
The media targets the readers and viewers emotions. They know it sucks people in to the point that they feel they have skin in the game or a form of emotional attachment. Prosecuting a war requires the opposite, de-tachment. Killing another human is not natural. Killing innocents is even more unnatural. Walling off emotions while waging war saves lives including one's own, as silly as that may sound or read.
E.g. Lucian's article. He took to examining, researching, and analyzing pics. He focused on the buildings and the dirt. Mainstream media speculated based solely on the area was the epicenter of refugee camp known for its high population of little ones. Not a single mainstream article actually geo-located the strikes to be where population of the camp was. Even Hamas's report of casualties do not support multiple strikes of that magnitude on civs. Emotions are part of being human. Those who toy with them, whether intentionally or due to ignorance are snake bellies.
As usual Shadow Cloud, I agree with your analysis. Stirring my emotions is relatively easy. I do not deal at all with brutality, slaughter, cruelty, or barbarism. I refused to watch Bambi and Ole Yeller. I have little to no competence in issues/strategies of war, especially in the presence of veterans of Vietnam. Thank you for your attention. I’ll see myself out....
(Nevah show yourself out, you speak your ~truth~. Be proud, Sistah.)
Ever since the death of my beloved wife cannot watch any teevee show or movie containing violence or any documentary or even a Disney film in which my relatives, the feathered fliers, the gilled swimmers, or any 4-legged is killed. That even includes a spotted hyena, the planet's most brutal scavenger. No longer hunt to feed others. Do hunt in the sense of drawing as near them as I can to connect to their great spirit. The same spirit found in my wife.
For now, the 2-legged are exempt from that. Much due to the long history of 2-legged males as un-natural born killahs. And in that group are those who derive great pleasure from the pain they inflict upon others.
Understandably for some people of goodwill that creates a moral dilemma of what shall or shant be done with and to them. Not for me. See it as those mofos made their choice knowing full well all choices come with consequences. And it is not unusual for them to try to escape the consequences in their final act by hiding behind wimmin and children or hostages.
The matriarch of a hyena clan will stand and fight a lion after she and her clan have killed a lioness and/or cubs. She will not hide among her clan nor send others out to fight for her. And most of all she knows a fate worse than death comes first. Can respect her. Not so the many 2legged throughout history that now includes Hamas and PIL. They have forfeited their lives and knowingly and willingly the lives of their own kind. Gazans were given a choice and the overwhelming still have choices. Time is running. Time is an ally to the good and an enemy to the mofos.
(Note: Will not speak of any specific through general activity(s) or events involving multiple people beyond humorous or tangential. The past can be a guide yet one only can exist in the present and do one's small part to see to it the future will be there for others.)
I am so sorry for the loss of your beloved wife, and All Souls Day is the time to remember her grace and love.
Thank you for your kind words about telling the truth as I receive it, knowing my voice needs to be heard, and embracing the world of all truth embodied in the lives of our animal friends. As a child when I questioned my mother about eating meat, she told me our ancestors always gave thanks to the animal for its life, and I silently thanked chickens, turkeys, pigs, and cows until I stopped eating pigs and cows.
I have never been able to bear Disney animal documentaries, and Nat Geo or PBS are equally violent. Seeing photos of dead animals lying in front of their killers is also something I avoid. I cannot unsee such hideous documentation of wantonly taking the spirit of beauty in search of ego and misplaced pride.
The religion of the victims in the Israeli war is irrelevant. Bibi has never been much more than a loud bully with an army to enforce his cruelty. Hamas is no better. They all lack the courage of the female hyena.
Thank you my friend. I appreciate your wise counsel.
i was heartened to see many of the comments already posted. So much discourse seems to focus on the false dilemma of Israel has the right to defend itself (true) vs Hamas' actions on 7 Oct were reprehensible and cruel (also true). Glad to see so many realize that unbridled revenge can eventually breed more enemies.
Questions I have been asking myself... How does Israel define victory in this war-- when every member of Hamas is dead? Certainly sounds like a concrete objective but what is the cost of attaining it against an enemy who can blend into the population?
And what happens next -- does the displaced population return and rebuild among the ruins? Will Israel continue to control the area?
Remember Munich 1972? Israel countered with a team which rooted out and went after the people who planned and carried out the murder of Israeli athletes.
What is the big picture for how this part of the Middle East will look like after all of the shooting and bombing stops?
Will both Palestinians and Israelis ever commit to a two-state solution?
Still reading on the history of Gaza ... I have more questions than answers.
This is a well done analysis, especially since you note, you are over 5,000 miles away, and no reporters or investigators who can go to the site of the attack. War is a plague on the world.
I hear you buddy, this is hard especially for those of us who understand what we are looking at, and I would think there are a lot of us. We act as interpreters and follow the development of, what we see. There is a unique burden, that people who just want to forget this is even happening, or just plain can't deal with it, don't share. I like you, know too much to be able to ignore it, my sleep has been greatly effected, 3 hrs is a long stretch now and if I'm lucky 5 total, I'm not without energy, I have plenty of it. I have been attuned to Ukraine long before that POS putin invaded , if I had been in better health and quite a bit younger, I would have been there to help, and now we have this, what happened along the Gaza border in Israel was an unspeakable atrocity. I thought the russians had found a new low for humanity in Ukraine, well hamas did something that made putin look like a piker. The scales are not comparable of course, but the intent could well be. The nexus of evildoers should have everyone scared to death; I'm not frightened for me, it's my children and grandchildren that has me worried. I saw David Resnick on the Chris Hays show yesterday, he has been in Israel since the 7th, they were talking about what he had seen, and his new article in the New Yorker, so I read it. Sobering hardly begins to describe it's effect, and I know what war looks like. That's it for now, it seems that the lack of sleep is catching up with me after all. Thank you for your valued input, you make a lot of us feel not so alone.
So very hard to see these photos, knowing more civilians died. Will these bombings that Israel is now committing considered a war crime? In my opinion, yes, and I say that sadly. I have never ever felt violent retaliation is a way to achieve any goal. All of us are traumatized by the inhumane evilness of Hamas combatants. All of us want justice but most of us do not condone more and more atrocities like these bombings. Hamas and Hezbollah are not “normal”. They’re insane. Somehow, their insanity has to stop. We must find the hostages and the Palestinian people must be given a permanent home.
They would be a war crime if Hamas had not been the aggressor. Under international law, a nation defending itself is given much more leeway than you would think. Not the aggressor however. Every bullet fired by Russia on Ukraine every missile fired is a war crime.
The UN General Assembly, ok, so their credibility as fair-minded, relatively objective and competent judges seems to be dubious enough.
So, the UN Security Council, who is running that now, is it still Russia that holds the rotating chair? To google again - no, as of October 2023 it's Brazil, so at least that's less of a travesty. The General Assembly has dozens of countries judging Israel and Ukraine's response to genocidal aggression who are not fit to adjudicate a fight between pit bulls or a multi-vehicle traffic accident without raising suspicions they were bribed to pick winners and losers, or how the fault is apportioned, or now with "no-fault" laws on the books, how much the pain and suffering is worth.
At first my comprehension of the U.N. was more shaped by studies on the 1969-1970 national high school debate topic: "Resolved, that the Congress should prohibit unilateral (U.S. ) military intervention in foreign countries." I was a senior that year and leaned left anyway, so locating Irving Howe and other critics of the Vietnam intervention in Dissent, C. Wright Mills's book The Power Elite, G. William Domhoff's Who Rules America?, critiques of the US interventions in Nicaragua in the 1920s, Iran in 1953 to oust Mossadegh, Guatemala in 1954 to oust Jacabo Arbenz, Cuba at the Bay of Pigs, up to Vietnam - albeit the US did have South Korean allied troops assisting, and some assistance from Australia, but essentially it was "our war" with the ARVN as allies, and the NLF/North Vietnam as proxies of, but formidable opposition even without Russia. I see I skipped over the US role in evading the post-French Dien Bien Phu defeat provisions for the 1954 elections so as to rule out inconvenient candidates, but it's just a sketch. I skipped over finding Douglas Pike's 1962 study of the National Liberation Front aka "Viet Cong," and too many articles in left wing and magazines like National Review (to see how best to deal with their arguments) to list, it was one of the most interesting and demanding courses I took in high school. My team even ended up winning a sort of "mythical Iowa state high school championship," but my partner Cris Miller was more responsible for it than I was- her father was a professor of religion at Drake U., and she had better research and study habits!
Had to study the NATO Charter, especially Article 5, of course the US Constitution - since this was before the War Powers Act theoretically reined in the executive branch, largely due to the massive domestic opposition to the war in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, we focused on congressional power of the purse, power to defund the Pentagon as far as waging war in Indochina. I was also in the statewide "Model United Nations," one of the delegates representing Chad, about the poorest country on the planet.
I was unaware of the deep Soviet penetration of the United Nations, and much else. I don't think Antonio G.'s dictums are definitive statements of the relevant international war, or the war of armed conflict. As LKTIV just mentioned above, the Hamas aggression - killing in one day a number of Israelis that, when adjusted for proportional population numbers, would be as if the USA was hit by terrorists and around 48,000 civilians were killed, mull that over a bit.
Steppenwolf was a highly-influential American hard rock band, based in Los Angeles, CA from 1968-1976. They have sold well over 25 million record sales worldwide, releasing eight gold albums and twelve Billboard Hot 100 singles of which six were Top 40 hits, including three Top 10.
Steppenwolf - Magic Carpet Ride (Version 1969)
Another song that repays playing it "fairly loud" or through the best headphones you have, then look out!
Darling, we are the same age. I know all about the wars because my parents were Holocaust victims, my dad joined the Army so he could fight the Nazis. They sent him to the Pacific Theater for 4 years. My husband, who I met in 1970, when I was a hippie, is a Vietnam Vet. I know how those wars bring trauma to the table of households, also. And yes, Russia should be expelled from the UN. The Cold War is a thing of the past now. Remember Kruschev banging his shoe on the table?
As for albums, we have 500 of them and Steppenwolf’s are amongst the many. We have music to soothe our souls and dang, wasn’t our era the very best??
Thank you for pointing out history and the music that helps us exist. Now what we have to contend with is the absolute hatred that our country has unleashed upon each other.
And you know Marlene, on the lighter side of this since the dark and complex side is going to persist for us to figure out as best we can in any case, I have been online now (regularly) just a bit over 14 years, since August 2009. One thing that I noticed maybe five or six years into that, was on sites with music videos or links to music discussions, there was and still is a kind of rough consensus that a huge amount of the music from the 60s, 70s and into the 1980s, "stands up as worthy of sincere admiration," to put it more formally than usual, while the fact is some time and in some ways there was a growing trend to "overproduce" pop music, along with far too much use by newer bands (or bands with some experience which sort of ran out of creative steam and enthusiasm) taking "the easy way out," where they didn't usually just "steal musical ideas outright," no, but it was far too derivative, predictable, lowest common denominator material from the get-go, then the corporate producers sort of watered it down more to "appeal to the widest demographic," going straight for profit over any ideas about how interesting and well done the music, lyrics, and a singer or band's collective talent might carry them, so consistently underestimating their audience (Americans are I think much more astute judges of pop music, than difficult political messaging, not always, hell no, huge exceptions although it sometimes takes some time for the "masses to wake up") - and again and again, to wind this up: younger people would post something like "You know I was born many many years after this music was popular, and it's great, why isn't (most) current music this good! This is not fair" etc.
I myself feel similarly about quite a bit of music from the late 1920s, through the 30s and 40s, it's a different set of musical goals and certainly the lyrics are (mostly) "classier," some subjects are just not discussed at all, or only hinted at, ok, that's all true, and for SURE some of the sexism is pretty appalling, outrageous, in the worst cases, some of it is there but it doesn't seem to make much sense to get outraged about a traditional romantic song that isn't even close to being "male chauvinism run rampant," so I and I'm sure millions and millions of others around the planet enjoy it, on its own merits and even as simply something from a different era, just like I enjoy some Afrobeat or Indian (subcontinent) music, folk music from 'you name it,' etc.
It's cool that there seem to be more than enough younger people, and not just Americans, able to recognize something of value in the past music, and enjoy it.
THIS next is one huge example of why, at times anyway, I LOVE the internet - even the G., which I do not trust AT ALL on the I/P issues, but that's as it is, they're capable of really top-notch journalism and reporting / opinions / reviews like this, which track some things we're discussing in our last comments and replies, I may have to search out Flanagan's latest novel, that's for sure:
Question 7 by Richard Flanagan review – this deeply moving book is his finest work
Blending memoir and history and auto-fiction, this brilliantly unique book by the Booker winner is a treatise on the immeasurability of life
Tara June Winch
Thu 2 Nov 2023 10.00 EDT
Last modified on Thu 2 Nov 2023 10.03 EDT
Reading Question 7 in the aftermath of recent news, from the referendum failure to enshrine an Indigenous voice in the Australian constitution, during the days that have followed Hamas’ brutal attack on an Israeli kibbutz one soft Saturday morning, to the declaration of war, again, the scale of human suffering eclipsing all reason – I felt an immense sense of clarity. Clarity might not be the right sentiment, perhaps it’s a lightness, a levitation as witness – I cannot quite place it, but as Question 7 exposes so astonishingly, words are faulty things.
Booker prize winner Richard Flanagan’s 12th book stands alone in its structure and its thread of thought as it bisects his oeuvre between the fictive and the factual. It is a brilliant meditation on the past of one man and the history that coalesced in his existence. Judgment befalls Flanagan again and again, and by his own pen, the irrefutable details of his birth and eventual death are writ large in a shame that he wrestles with as if meeting some beast; or, like the sentiment from Rebecca West to HG Wells – their tumultuous affair plays a pivotal role on these pages – some “beautiful voice singing out of a darkened room into which one gropes and finds nothing”.
Only the best writing is so affecting that a reader has a physical reaction
Flanagan explores old, razed and sacred ground that he’s visited before in his writings – the prisoners of war and the Japanese death railway, white Australia’s Black history, the convict and settler bloodlines of fertile Tasmanian country, and the cold rapids of the mighty Franklin River. But here everything that has ever burnt the author becomes an elixir, a balm for everything that happened before he was born, and as he illustrates, will happen long after he, and we, are gone.
The butterfly effect of history culminates in either Flanagan’s father’s early death as a PoW in Japan, Flanagan having never been born and this book having never been written; or the atom bomb dropping on Hiroshima, his father living, and Flanagan alive and writing. The words here all collide at the same destination – that is, the question from which the book takes its title: Question 7, Anton Chekhov’s parody of a school test problem:
Wednesday, June 17, 1881, a train had to leave station A at 3 am in order to reach station B at 11pm; just as the train was about to depart, however, an order came that the train had to reach station B by 7pm. Who loves longer, a man or a woman?
Trying to summarise the title, and how it rests in this wonderful book is a futile act, akin to describing a certain middle note in a perfume, but the question lingers, as does the enduring nature of love and who it belongs to. When the author visits the site where his late father was tortured, the Ohama coalmine in Japan, he finds “no memorial, no sign, no evidence” at the site but rather a love hotel. “What remained, or rather what existed, was only the oblivion of pleasure in another’s arms – the same oblivion that simultaneously prefigures and denies death. As if the need to forget is as strong as the need to remember. Perhaps stronger,” Flanagan writes. “And after oblivion? We return to the stories we call our memories, perplexed, strangers to the ongoing invention that is our life.”
I just re-watched a ten year old episode of Parts Unknown, the Anthony Bourdain travel show, Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza, from season two, and found it still extremely timely and informative. Anthony dines with both Israelis and Gazans, revealing their essential humanity and kindliness. He comes away frustrated, like all of us, how can this dispute between two peoples with so much in common ever be resolved. Unfortunately we're witnessing, from afar, what happens when no resolution seems even possible.
Long-term feuds between cousins that have become wars, at least sporadically, are the worst. Well, the worst except outright, no holds barred civil wars. You can see that "since forever," in our planet's recorded history, even with special pleading and biased accounts having to be discounted in advance, plus how long until ORGANIZED RELIGIONS get deeply involved to make sure it becomes consumed with frenzy, fanaticism, and incredibly grotesque vendettas? Like Hamas-Israel?
Bravo, Lucian, brava Carolyn. Reading your meticulous account, Lucian, I felt like one of the students and doctors famously painted by Thomas Eakins, observing Dr. Gross in the operating room, and part of me reacted exactly as the woman recoiling from the agony. I join your other readers in thanks for reminding us that "collateral damage" is a bland phrase meant to palliate and camouflage the sight of blood and pieces of human beings, who were "merely" going about their "ordinary" lives, until they were torn apart in sudden death.
Lucien, I know this post is more about the cost of war, any war and to all sides, and the cost you yourself bear in the reporting. So I ask this not to ignore or diminish that, at all.
And Israeli friend (quite left of center, fwiw), has written me that unless the rules of engagement are changed such that attacking those combatants hiding behind civilian shields is understood to be an accepted (sic) component of warfare we will all be f'd, as Hamas' M.O. (in this example) will become the norm and prevent nation states from fighting non-nation states. I wonder how you see this. thanks, skip
Thanks very much. So now it's clear: the situation is more muddy than the Mississippi in flood season. : ) This is not dissimilar to this, which I don't know if I've linked to before or not: https://x.com/JayNDonde/status/1711792581821301249?s=20
Civilian casualties of war are unavoidable. I can’t think of any war since humans learned to keep histories that the families who live between armies haven’t suffered hunger, thirst, illness, plague or death. Until quite recently, although some countries have given little more than lip service, nations at war gave little thought for civilian losses. We’ve also reached the technological heights of drone warfare and tactical nukes. What’s happening in Gaza happens in Kyiv. No one seriously believes the West will get Putin to stop using rockets. How is it that Israel is being demonized for the same behavior in a war started by Hamas with the massacre of over 1,000 civilians? Not until I get a rational and fact based explanation that is totally free of anti-Israel rhetoric, will I consider Israel to be at fault for the civilian loss of life in Gaza in a war started by a terror organization that has as its raison d’etre the extermination of the Jewish population of Israel.
This isn't a war it's the Israeli govt. Committing revenge and genocide. They don't care about killing civilians including children and it also appears they don't care about possibly killing the hostages. Also wishing the residents will all leave and go to Egypt is more ethnic cleansing be similar to what we have seen in the west bank. This government is leading Israel down a very dark path and it needs to stop. If it doesn't most of the world will turn against Israel. This is not defending your country this is just angry revenge killing. If it doesn't stop there will just be another Hamas resurrected from this destruction. As an American I don't want my tax dollars paying for the killing of children. Towards defense that is fine ... Towards genocide and the maintenance of an apartheid state, no way
Sorry, but this is overly simplisitc. Firstly, Hamas continues to fire rockets into Israel (https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-kills-top-hamas-general-as-gaza-strikes-continue-says-iran-aiding-terror-group/); do we think Israel is obliged to not respond? Secondly, it's entirely reasonable to believe that any military consideration of the hostages' chances of being freed is next to zero. Hamas has shown almost no willingness to return them (whether Israeli or of other nationalities), and could certainly have offered to free them in return for a ceasefire, but has not. Consequently military options are likely promulgated on the assumption that the hostages will never be returned alive. If options arise that offer the hostages freedom they will be taken, of course, but military decisions are unlikely to being based on that as a first premise. Third: Hamas's stated objective is the destruction of Israel, and it's said October 7 is an action they're ready to repeat innumerable times (see Martha Hess' post, below, with https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hamas-official-says-group-will-repeat-oct-7-attack-twice-and-three-times-to-destroy-israel/?mibextid=Zxz2cZ). Categorizing the attacks on Hamas, necessarily on Gaza, as nothing more than "angry revenge killing" is clearly not accurate given Hamas' charter and avowed goals. Lastly, if you don't want your tax dollars paying for the killing of children then how do you feel about the US tax dollars that go to Saudi Arabia and its proxy war in Yemen? (That's not the only example, btw.) Regarding "genocide" and "apartheid" I recommend looking up the definition of genocide and the history of apartheid in South Africa; neither word applies here, as 50% of graduating doctors in Israel are either Arab or Druze (https://scheerpost.com/2021/10/05/why-so-many-young-arab-israelis-are-becoming-doctors/), and the population of the West Bank has increased by 25% since 2017 (not a very successful genocide #sarcasm). Israel is not perfect by any means, but your comments are reductive in the extreme.
Sorry but your talking points have become tiresome. I believe Hamas has offered something for the hostages but I am not 100% sure. And yes you are correct there are many problems with the u.s. foreign policy and I do wish the yemenis, rohinga, Uyghurs etc. Got more coverage. I am disgusted with much of what our tax dollars support. My final comment: I thought abortion was the most divisive topic these days but I think Israel Palestine is the new number one now.
As of today 4 hostages have been freed and one was rescued. Per the AP, "Hamas has said it would let the others go in return for thousands of Palestinian prisoners held by Israel, which has dismissed the offer." Like virtually every other government, Israel is not about to agree to such a bargain (sic) with kidnappers. https://apnews.com/article/israel-hostages-portraits-hamas-captives-e7213e6262cdb9c51ab174326874538c
Please define war, Tony. Explain the genocide that Israel is committing against the terrorist entity Hamas. Produce evidence that Israel’s government is not the people of Israel. No rhetoric, just facts. No propaganda, just data. I’ll wait.
Yes Hamas is Palestinian but Palestine is not Hamas. Are all Americans Republicans? Do all Americans support republican policies? I read about a number of dead Gaza residents that worked for the Palestinian authority which is definitely not Hamas. What Israel is doing reminds me of what u.s. soldiers who destroyed whole Vietnam villages to kill some v.c. also are all Israelis the same as the govt? If they are I guess that means you were a Republican from 2016 to 2020 but now you are a democrat. I am guessing more than 50% of Jews do not support what bibi and his right wing cabinet goons are doing in Gaza. And yes this looks like what is happening certainly fits the definition of ethnic cleansing and genocide as understand these terms. This doesn't feel like Israel defending itself this feels like the indiscriminate killing of civilians and children. Yes Hamas terrorists also did indiscriminate killing with a racial hatred aspect too it but to me, the official Israel government policies of killing and land dispossession should not be condoned especially as official u.s. policy. And when you turn the water and power off to a 2M+ community that should tell you quite a bit about the government mindset
But wars do not need to happen...ever! Women would never willingly send their child to fight a battle that they are not directly involved with. Wars are committed by the egos of men! MEN!! I will repeat this every single day.
Since when are we supposed to digest all this stuff? I’m trying to sort out which of my friends has canceled me and who it’s safe to call (this goes for family as well)!
In the meantime, l no longer wear my Israeli-IDF hat because l don’t want to normalize destruction. My common parlance is to self-identify as a Jew when addressing a person l expect to have future conversations with.
As senior auditors at a college, we frequently have conversations with teachers and students. Surprisingly, although the campus is racially and culturally integrated, there are no protests.
A far cry from the radical 60’s and 70’s when we went to school and were vocal, demonstrative and demanded accountability from the administrators!
In many ways we are fortunate to have made the decision to return to the university after our children have grown and our employment has tapered down.
It forces us to confront our diminishing influence on society and recognize the limits of endurance.
I think the 60s protests were different in at least one key respect: "we" were being hijacked into funding and serving in a war we evaluated as immoral, counter-productive, wasteful, absurdly lacking in evidence of any direct threat to the US (I recall a routine use of the argument, "What are the North Vietnamese going to do, cross the Pacific aboard thousand of sampans, bom the West Coast, and invade California?")
The US has aided and supported the State of Israel for many decades, but it's just not the same thing - plus, to bring up "crass material considerations," most of that money is spent here, in the US, on weapons and other assistance, and it's also not a one-way street: Israel has helped us and NATO and "Five Eyes" allies of the US in numerous instances, particularly against international terrorists,
Great that you're auditing classes at a college, I still am in the process of arranging a post-pandemic reentry to finish some coursework here at the U-of M-Twin Cities.
There is an emotional cost to writing these stories. You and I handle it differently. You write the truth and I turn terrifying things into comedy. It's a coping mechanism. But there is always a cost. Always.
You are absolutely correct about that.
Lucian and Tracy, I want to thank you for taking on this grim task. Your physical description of everything really helps me understand what happened. One sentence really grabbed my attention “It appears that the men at the top right are standing atop the ruin of a building.” Along with the photograph of all the people standing amongst the ruins. These are people just like you and me. Another reminder that all we hold dear can be gone in the blink of an eye.
Having seen what has occurred since 10/7, I refuse to believe that this was the best or only way to take down the men who planned and executed the slaughter on that date. The emotional cost to following this war is knowing that as well as what we can do to stop it from happening again. And I feel pretty incompetent redrawing the second part of that statement.
The Israelis are experts at locating and neutralizing important players. They have not lost that expertise. This is obviously an effort to attempt to defer additional retaliation and it will not work. The Israelis are clearly losing the PR battle and the demise of Bibi will be soon. It they took their time to eliminate the Hamas leadership, they could have done that. Israelis are experts at finding and neutralizing the leaders. The lsraeli leadership is making gross errors. They will lose in the public opinion arena. The social media by the Palestinains has squashed the public relations effort of the Israelis. Watch social media. They war winning the hearts of our younger citizens. When terrorists attack India at Mumbai, the Indians chose not to retaliate because the event demonstarted the atrotious and willful attack by the Pakistinis. The world saw the act as terrorism and sympathized with the Indians. A rebuttal would have detracted from the event and India won the PR and as such, won the hearts and minds of the world. That may have been the way to deal with these situations. The Jews are so used to being persecuted that they were compelled to act. A pause to think the matter through may have been a better approach to how to handle the situation. The Jews have been persecuted so often and for so long that their mindset was to seek immediate revenge. GWB did the same after 9/11. We gained nothing except a bunch of American lives owing to the guidance of Cheney. What is the right way? I am beginning to believe that an immediate response in the long run is not a good tactic. Gen McChrystal agrees. There is never a good way to handle these attacks, but what Bibi is doing is a disaster and I hope Biden does not allow any missteps. We need a good seasoned approach. We cannot allow Israel to drag us into sending our sons into war. I was in Vietnam and that was a clusterfuck owing to our politicians and poor politician guidance. American have a very short attention span.
Q1: I refuse to believe that this was the best or only way to take down the men who planned and executed the slaughter on that date.
Re: best and only. Violence is the worst way and least lasting. The best way is the oldest of ways, expulsion and exile. Israel/IDF can't do that, only Gazans of goodwill can. Up to this moment, they have chosen unwisely.
Not only will Gazans of goodwill have to live with having kin who slaughtered and butchered babies, raped young gurlz, dismembered and burned adults, they will have to live with those barbarians among them while they watch their friends and family members pay the price for the deeds of others. There are many forms of survivor's guilt. These will haunt their souls forever. Many will later admit they woulda preferred death.
Q2: emotional cost
Some is due to the piss-poor reporting. How many times was it said an incursion was imminent? The same or more times than another oft repeated falsehood of Israel is constantly bombarding Gaza? The same or more times than there is no safe place in Gaza? If Israel was constantly bombarding Gaza the death toll of civs would be 100 or more times the actual number (whatever that is). Same with no safe places.
The media targets the readers and viewers emotions. They know it sucks people in to the point that they feel they have skin in the game or a form of emotional attachment. Prosecuting a war requires the opposite, de-tachment. Killing another human is not natural. Killing innocents is even more unnatural. Walling off emotions while waging war saves lives including one's own, as silly as that may sound or read.
E.g. Lucian's article. He took to examining, researching, and analyzing pics. He focused on the buildings and the dirt. Mainstream media speculated based solely on the area was the epicenter of refugee camp known for its high population of little ones. Not a single mainstream article actually geo-located the strikes to be where population of the camp was. Even Hamas's report of casualties do not support multiple strikes of that magnitude on civs. Emotions are part of being human. Those who toy with them, whether intentionally or due to ignorance are snake bellies.
~breathe~
As usual Shadow Cloud, I agree with your analysis. Stirring my emotions is relatively easy. I do not deal at all with brutality, slaughter, cruelty, or barbarism. I refused to watch Bambi and Ole Yeller. I have little to no competence in issues/strategies of war, especially in the presence of veterans of Vietnam. Thank you for your attention. I’ll see myself out....
(Nevah show yourself out, you speak your ~truth~. Be proud, Sistah.)
Ever since the death of my beloved wife cannot watch any teevee show or movie containing violence or any documentary or even a Disney film in which my relatives, the feathered fliers, the gilled swimmers, or any 4-legged is killed. That even includes a spotted hyena, the planet's most brutal scavenger. No longer hunt to feed others. Do hunt in the sense of drawing as near them as I can to connect to their great spirit. The same spirit found in my wife.
For now, the 2-legged are exempt from that. Much due to the long history of 2-legged males as un-natural born killahs. And in that group are those who derive great pleasure from the pain they inflict upon others.
Understandably for some people of goodwill that creates a moral dilemma of what shall or shant be done with and to them. Not for me. See it as those mofos made their choice knowing full well all choices come with consequences. And it is not unusual for them to try to escape the consequences in their final act by hiding behind wimmin and children or hostages.
The matriarch of a hyena clan will stand and fight a lion after she and her clan have killed a lioness and/or cubs. She will not hide among her clan nor send others out to fight for her. And most of all she knows a fate worse than death comes first. Can respect her. Not so the many 2legged throughout history that now includes Hamas and PIL. They have forfeited their lives and knowingly and willingly the lives of their own kind. Gazans were given a choice and the overwhelming still have choices. Time is running. Time is an ally to the good and an enemy to the mofos.
(Note: Will not speak of any specific through general activity(s) or events involving multiple people beyond humorous or tangential. The past can be a guide yet one only can exist in the present and do one's small part to see to it the future will be there for others.)
I am so sorry for the loss of your beloved wife, and All Souls Day is the time to remember her grace and love.
Thank you for your kind words about telling the truth as I receive it, knowing my voice needs to be heard, and embracing the world of all truth embodied in the lives of our animal friends. As a child when I questioned my mother about eating meat, she told me our ancestors always gave thanks to the animal for its life, and I silently thanked chickens, turkeys, pigs, and cows until I stopped eating pigs and cows.
I have never been able to bear Disney animal documentaries, and Nat Geo or PBS are equally violent. Seeing photos of dead animals lying in front of their killers is also something I avoid. I cannot unsee such hideous documentation of wantonly taking the spirit of beauty in search of ego and misplaced pride.
The religion of the victims in the Israeli war is irrelevant. Bibi has never been much more than a loud bully with an army to enforce his cruelty. Hamas is no better. They all lack the courage of the female hyena.
Thank you my friend. I appreciate your wise counsel.
~respect~
Regarding not redrawing...
i was heartened to see many of the comments already posted. So much discourse seems to focus on the false dilemma of Israel has the right to defend itself (true) vs Hamas' actions on 7 Oct were reprehensible and cruel (also true). Glad to see so many realize that unbridled revenge can eventually breed more enemies.
Questions I have been asking myself... How does Israel define victory in this war-- when every member of Hamas is dead? Certainly sounds like a concrete objective but what is the cost of attaining it against an enemy who can blend into the population?
And what happens next -- does the displaced population return and rebuild among the ruins? Will Israel continue to control the area?
Remember Munich 1972? Israel countered with a team which rooted out and went after the people who planned and carried out the murder of Israeli athletes.
What is the big picture for how this part of the Middle East will look like after all of the shooting and bombing stops?
Will both Palestinians and Israelis ever commit to a two-state solution?
Still reading on the history of Gaza ... I have more questions than answers.
Lucian,
This is a well done analysis, especially since you note, you are over 5,000 miles away, and no reporters or investigators who can go to the site of the attack. War is a plague on the world.
Peace,
Steve Dundas
I hear you buddy, this is hard especially for those of us who understand what we are looking at, and I would think there are a lot of us. We act as interpreters and follow the development of, what we see. There is a unique burden, that people who just want to forget this is even happening, or just plain can't deal with it, don't share. I like you, know too much to be able to ignore it, my sleep has been greatly effected, 3 hrs is a long stretch now and if I'm lucky 5 total, I'm not without energy, I have plenty of it. I have been attuned to Ukraine long before that POS putin invaded , if I had been in better health and quite a bit younger, I would have been there to help, and now we have this, what happened along the Gaza border in Israel was an unspeakable atrocity. I thought the russians had found a new low for humanity in Ukraine, well hamas did something that made putin look like a piker. The scales are not comparable of course, but the intent could well be. The nexus of evildoers should have everyone scared to death; I'm not frightened for me, it's my children and grandchildren that has me worried. I saw David Resnick on the Chris Hays show yesterday, he has been in Israel since the 7th, they were talking about what he had seen, and his new article in the New Yorker, so I read it. Sobering hardly begins to describe it's effect, and I know what war looks like. That's it for now, it seems that the lack of sleep is catching up with me after all. Thank you for your valued input, you make a lot of us feel not so alone.
Sleep interrupted- yes.
Considerable energy- yes.
Children and grandchildren- yes.
Worry for the future of humanity-
not so much.
Each generation has its own unique challenges. Are our children and grandchildren equipped to handle what’s coming down the pike?
Only time will tell. And we will be long gone.
When l reflect on the Framers (US), I’m mostly optimistic. Mistakes - yes.
Room for improvement- yes.
Willing and able to face challenges?
That is the question.
So very hard to see these photos, knowing more civilians died. Will these bombings that Israel is now committing considered a war crime? In my opinion, yes, and I say that sadly. I have never ever felt violent retaliation is a way to achieve any goal. All of us are traumatized by the inhumane evilness of Hamas combatants. All of us want justice but most of us do not condone more and more atrocities like these bombings. Hamas and Hezbollah are not “normal”. They’re insane. Somehow, their insanity has to stop. We must find the hostages and the Palestinian people must be given a permanent home.
They would be a war crime if Hamas had not been the aggressor. Under international law, a nation defending itself is given much more leeway than you would think. Not the aggressor however. Every bullet fired by Russia on Ukraine every missile fired is a war crime.
But the UN appears not to think that way. At least, that is what I understand from the chairman, Antonió Guterres.
The UN General Assembly, ok, so their credibility as fair-minded, relatively objective and competent judges seems to be dubious enough.
So, the UN Security Council, who is running that now, is it still Russia that holds the rotating chair? To google again - no, as of October 2023 it's Brazil, so at least that's less of a travesty. The General Assembly has dozens of countries judging Israel and Ukraine's response to genocidal aggression who are not fit to adjudicate a fight between pit bulls or a multi-vehicle traffic accident without raising suspicions they were bribed to pick winners and losers, or how the fault is apportioned, or now with "no-fault" laws on the books, how much the pain and suffering is worth.
At first my comprehension of the U.N. was more shaped by studies on the 1969-1970 national high school debate topic: "Resolved, that the Congress should prohibit unilateral (U.S. ) military intervention in foreign countries." I was a senior that year and leaned left anyway, so locating Irving Howe and other critics of the Vietnam intervention in Dissent, C. Wright Mills's book The Power Elite, G. William Domhoff's Who Rules America?, critiques of the US interventions in Nicaragua in the 1920s, Iran in 1953 to oust Mossadegh, Guatemala in 1954 to oust Jacabo Arbenz, Cuba at the Bay of Pigs, up to Vietnam - albeit the US did have South Korean allied troops assisting, and some assistance from Australia, but essentially it was "our war" with the ARVN as allies, and the NLF/North Vietnam as proxies of, but formidable opposition even without Russia. I see I skipped over the US role in evading the post-French Dien Bien Phu defeat provisions for the 1954 elections so as to rule out inconvenient candidates, but it's just a sketch. I skipped over finding Douglas Pike's 1962 study of the National Liberation Front aka "Viet Cong," and too many articles in left wing and magazines like National Review (to see how best to deal with their arguments) to list, it was one of the most interesting and demanding courses I took in high school. My team even ended up winning a sort of "mythical Iowa state high school championship," but my partner Cris Miller was more responsible for it than I was- her father was a professor of religion at Drake U., and she had better research and study habits!
Had to study the NATO Charter, especially Article 5, of course the US Constitution - since this was before the War Powers Act theoretically reined in the executive branch, largely due to the massive domestic opposition to the war in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, we focused on congressional power of the purse, power to defund the Pentagon as far as waging war in Indochina. I was also in the statewide "Model United Nations," one of the delegates representing Chad, about the poorest country on the planet.
I was unaware of the deep Soviet penetration of the United Nations, and much else. I don't think Antonio G.'s dictums are definitive statements of the relevant international war, or the war of armed conflict. As LKTIV just mentioned above, the Hamas aggression - killing in one day a number of Israelis that, when adjusted for proportional population numbers, would be as if the USA was hit by terrorists and around 48,000 civilians were killed, mull that over a bit.
Something to lighten this heavy mood:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPE9a_epmWw
8,612,267 views Aug 10, 2012
Written - John Kay, Rushton Moreve
Steppenwolf was a highly-influential American hard rock band, based in Los Angeles, CA from 1968-1976. They have sold well over 25 million record sales worldwide, releasing eight gold albums and twelve Billboard Hot 100 singles of which six were Top 40 hits, including three Top 10.
Steppenwolf - Magic Carpet Ride (Version 1969)
Another song that repays playing it "fairly loud" or through the best headphones you have, then look out!
https://thehill.com/opinion/international/3717566-how-to-expel-russia-from-the-un/
Darling, we are the same age. I know all about the wars because my parents were Holocaust victims, my dad joined the Army so he could fight the Nazis. They sent him to the Pacific Theater for 4 years. My husband, who I met in 1970, when I was a hippie, is a Vietnam Vet. I know how those wars bring trauma to the table of households, also. And yes, Russia should be expelled from the UN. The Cold War is a thing of the past now. Remember Kruschev banging his shoe on the table?
As for albums, we have 500 of them and Steppenwolf’s are amongst the many. We have music to soothe our souls and dang, wasn’t our era the very best??
Thank you for pointing out history and the music that helps us exist. Now what we have to contend with is the absolute hatred that our country has unleashed upon each other.
That about sums it up!
And you know Marlene, on the lighter side of this since the dark and complex side is going to persist for us to figure out as best we can in any case, I have been online now (regularly) just a bit over 14 years, since August 2009. One thing that I noticed maybe five or six years into that, was on sites with music videos or links to music discussions, there was and still is a kind of rough consensus that a huge amount of the music from the 60s, 70s and into the 1980s, "stands up as worthy of sincere admiration," to put it more formally than usual, while the fact is some time and in some ways there was a growing trend to "overproduce" pop music, along with far too much use by newer bands (or bands with some experience which sort of ran out of creative steam and enthusiasm) taking "the easy way out," where they didn't usually just "steal musical ideas outright," no, but it was far too derivative, predictable, lowest common denominator material from the get-go, then the corporate producers sort of watered it down more to "appeal to the widest demographic," going straight for profit over any ideas about how interesting and well done the music, lyrics, and a singer or band's collective talent might carry them, so consistently underestimating their audience (Americans are I think much more astute judges of pop music, than difficult political messaging, not always, hell no, huge exceptions although it sometimes takes some time for the "masses to wake up") - and again and again, to wind this up: younger people would post something like "You know I was born many many years after this music was popular, and it's great, why isn't (most) current music this good! This is not fair" etc.
I myself feel similarly about quite a bit of music from the late 1920s, through the 30s and 40s, it's a different set of musical goals and certainly the lyrics are (mostly) "classier," some subjects are just not discussed at all, or only hinted at, ok, that's all true, and for SURE some of the sexism is pretty appalling, outrageous, in the worst cases, some of it is there but it doesn't seem to make much sense to get outraged about a traditional romantic song that isn't even close to being "male chauvinism run rampant," so I and I'm sure millions and millions of others around the planet enjoy it, on its own merits and even as simply something from a different era, just like I enjoy some Afrobeat or Indian (subcontinent) music, folk music from 'you name it,' etc.
It's cool that there seem to be more than enough younger people, and not just Americans, able to recognize something of value in the past music, and enjoy it.
THIS next is one huge example of why, at times anyway, I LOVE the internet - even the G., which I do not trust AT ALL on the I/P issues, but that's as it is, they're capable of really top-notch journalism and reporting / opinions / reviews like this, which track some things we're discussing in our last comments and replies, I may have to search out Flanagan's latest novel, that's for sure:
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/nov/02/question-7-by-richard-flanagan-book-review
Review
Question 7 by Richard Flanagan review – this deeply moving book is his finest work
Blending memoir and history and auto-fiction, this brilliantly unique book by the Booker winner is a treatise on the immeasurability of life
Tara June Winch
Thu 2 Nov 2023 10.00 EDT
Last modified on Thu 2 Nov 2023 10.03 EDT
Reading Question 7 in the aftermath of recent news, from the referendum failure to enshrine an Indigenous voice in the Australian constitution, during the days that have followed Hamas’ brutal attack on an Israeli kibbutz one soft Saturday morning, to the declaration of war, again, the scale of human suffering eclipsing all reason – I felt an immense sense of clarity. Clarity might not be the right sentiment, perhaps it’s a lightness, a levitation as witness – I cannot quite place it, but as Question 7 exposes so astonishingly, words are faulty things.
Booker prize winner Richard Flanagan’s 12th book stands alone in its structure and its thread of thought as it bisects his oeuvre between the fictive and the factual. It is a brilliant meditation on the past of one man and the history that coalesced in his existence. Judgment befalls Flanagan again and again, and by his own pen, the irrefutable details of his birth and eventual death are writ large in a shame that he wrestles with as if meeting some beast; or, like the sentiment from Rebecca West to HG Wells – their tumultuous affair plays a pivotal role on these pages – some “beautiful voice singing out of a darkened room into which one gropes and finds nothing”.
Only the best writing is so affecting that a reader has a physical reaction
Flanagan explores old, razed and sacred ground that he’s visited before in his writings – the prisoners of war and the Japanese death railway, white Australia’s Black history, the convict and settler bloodlines of fertile Tasmanian country, and the cold rapids of the mighty Franklin River. But here everything that has ever burnt the author becomes an elixir, a balm for everything that happened before he was born, and as he illustrates, will happen long after he, and we, are gone.
The butterfly effect of history culminates in either Flanagan’s father’s early death as a PoW in Japan, Flanagan having never been born and this book having never been written; or the atom bomb dropping on Hiroshima, his father living, and Flanagan alive and writing. The words here all collide at the same destination – that is, the question from which the book takes its title: Question 7, Anton Chekhov’s parody of a school test problem:
Wednesday, June 17, 1881, a train had to leave station A at 3 am in order to reach station B at 11pm; just as the train was about to depart, however, an order came that the train had to reach station B by 7pm. Who loves longer, a man or a woman?
Trying to summarise the title, and how it rests in this wonderful book is a futile act, akin to describing a certain middle note in a perfume, but the question lingers, as does the enduring nature of love and who it belongs to. When the author visits the site where his late father was tortured, the Ohama coalmine in Japan, he finds “no memorial, no sign, no evidence” at the site but rather a love hotel. “What remained, or rather what existed, was only the oblivion of pleasure in another’s arms – the same oblivion that simultaneously prefigures and denies death. As if the need to forget is as strong as the need to remember. Perhaps stronger,” Flanagan writes. “And after oblivion? We return to the stories we call our memories, perplexed, strangers to the ongoing invention that is our life.”
******* {{Review continues}}
I just re-watched a ten year old episode of Parts Unknown, the Anthony Bourdain travel show, Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza, from season two, and found it still extremely timely and informative. Anthony dines with both Israelis and Gazans, revealing their essential humanity and kindliness. He comes away frustrated, like all of us, how can this dispute between two peoples with so much in common ever be resolved. Unfortunately we're witnessing, from afar, what happens when no resolution seems even possible.
Long-term feuds between cousins that have become wars, at least sporadically, are the worst. Well, the worst except outright, no holds barred civil wars. You can see that "since forever," in our planet's recorded history, even with special pleading and biased accounts having to be discounted in advance, plus how long until ORGANIZED RELIGIONS get deeply involved to make sure it becomes consumed with frenzy, fanaticism, and incredibly grotesque vendettas? Like Hamas-Israel?
Bravo, Lucian, brava Carolyn. Reading your meticulous account, Lucian, I felt like one of the students and doctors famously painted by Thomas Eakins, observing Dr. Gross in the operating room, and part of me reacted exactly as the woman recoiling from the agony. I join your other readers in thanks for reminding us that "collateral damage" is a bland phrase meant to palliate and camouflage the sight of blood and pieces of human beings, who were "merely" going about their "ordinary" lives, until they were torn apart in sudden death.
Kudos on your interpretive skills when it comes to photos, Google Earth, and weapons knowledge.
I was curious as to what you'd write about tonight because, God knows, you had many choices. Alas.
Lucien, I know this post is more about the cost of war, any war and to all sides, and the cost you yourself bear in the reporting. So I ask this not to ignore or diminish that, at all.
And Israeli friend (quite left of center, fwiw), has written me that unless the rules of engagement are changed such that attacking those combatants hiding behind civilian shields is understood to be an accepted (sic) component of warfare we will all be f'd, as Hamas' M.O. (in this example) will become the norm and prevent nation states from fighting non-nation states. I wonder how you see this. thanks, skip
Read the Israel War Complexifier by Julia Ioffee in Puck right now. The rules of war are more liberal than you would think in this regard.'
https://puck.news/the-israel-war-crime-complexifier/
Thanks Lucian, this is valuable, period full stop, for future use - unfortunately, of course...
Thanks very much. So now it's clear: the situation is more muddy than the Mississippi in flood season. : ) This is not dissimilar to this, which I don't know if I've linked to before or not: https://x.com/JayNDonde/status/1711792581821301249?s=20
Civilian casualties of war are unavoidable. I can’t think of any war since humans learned to keep histories that the families who live between armies haven’t suffered hunger, thirst, illness, plague or death. Until quite recently, although some countries have given little more than lip service, nations at war gave little thought for civilian losses. We’ve also reached the technological heights of drone warfare and tactical nukes. What’s happening in Gaza happens in Kyiv. No one seriously believes the West will get Putin to stop using rockets. How is it that Israel is being demonized for the same behavior in a war started by Hamas with the massacre of over 1,000 civilians? Not until I get a rational and fact based explanation that is totally free of anti-Israel rhetoric, will I consider Israel to be at fault for the civilian loss of life in Gaza in a war started by a terror organization that has as its raison d’etre the extermination of the Jewish population of Israel.
This isn't a war it's the Israeli govt. Committing revenge and genocide. They don't care about killing civilians including children and it also appears they don't care about possibly killing the hostages. Also wishing the residents will all leave and go to Egypt is more ethnic cleansing be similar to what we have seen in the west bank. This government is leading Israel down a very dark path and it needs to stop. If it doesn't most of the world will turn against Israel. This is not defending your country this is just angry revenge killing. If it doesn't stop there will just be another Hamas resurrected from this destruction. As an American I don't want my tax dollars paying for the killing of children. Towards defense that is fine ... Towards genocide and the maintenance of an apartheid state, no way
Sorry, but this is overly simplisitc. Firstly, Hamas continues to fire rockets into Israel (https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-kills-top-hamas-general-as-gaza-strikes-continue-says-iran-aiding-terror-group/); do we think Israel is obliged to not respond? Secondly, it's entirely reasonable to believe that any military consideration of the hostages' chances of being freed is next to zero. Hamas has shown almost no willingness to return them (whether Israeli or of other nationalities), and could certainly have offered to free them in return for a ceasefire, but has not. Consequently military options are likely promulgated on the assumption that the hostages will never be returned alive. If options arise that offer the hostages freedom they will be taken, of course, but military decisions are unlikely to being based on that as a first premise. Third: Hamas's stated objective is the destruction of Israel, and it's said October 7 is an action they're ready to repeat innumerable times (see Martha Hess' post, below, with https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hamas-official-says-group-will-repeat-oct-7-attack-twice-and-three-times-to-destroy-israel/?mibextid=Zxz2cZ). Categorizing the attacks on Hamas, necessarily on Gaza, as nothing more than "angry revenge killing" is clearly not accurate given Hamas' charter and avowed goals. Lastly, if you don't want your tax dollars paying for the killing of children then how do you feel about the US tax dollars that go to Saudi Arabia and its proxy war in Yemen? (That's not the only example, btw.) Regarding "genocide" and "apartheid" I recommend looking up the definition of genocide and the history of apartheid in South Africa; neither word applies here, as 50% of graduating doctors in Israel are either Arab or Druze (https://scheerpost.com/2021/10/05/why-so-many-young-arab-israelis-are-becoming-doctors/), and the population of the West Bank has increased by 25% since 2017 (not a very successful genocide #sarcasm). Israel is not perfect by any means, but your comments are reductive in the extreme.
Sorry but your talking points have become tiresome. I believe Hamas has offered something for the hostages but I am not 100% sure. And yes you are correct there are many problems with the u.s. foreign policy and I do wish the yemenis, rohinga, Uyghurs etc. Got more coverage. I am disgusted with much of what our tax dollars support. My final comment: I thought abortion was the most divisive topic these days but I think Israel Palestine is the new number one now.
Tiresome is not the same as inaccurate.
As of today 4 hostages have been freed and one was rescued. Per the AP, "Hamas has said it would let the others go in return for thousands of Palestinian prisoners held by Israel, which has dismissed the offer." Like virtually every other government, Israel is not about to agree to such a bargain (sic) with kidnappers. https://apnews.com/article/israel-hostages-portraits-hamas-captives-e7213e6262cdb9c51ab174326874538c
Please define war, Tony. Explain the genocide that Israel is committing against the terrorist entity Hamas. Produce evidence that Israel’s government is not the people of Israel. No rhetoric, just facts. No propaganda, just data. I’ll wait.
Yes Hamas is Palestinian but Palestine is not Hamas. Are all Americans Republicans? Do all Americans support republican policies? I read about a number of dead Gaza residents that worked for the Palestinian authority which is definitely not Hamas. What Israel is doing reminds me of what u.s. soldiers who destroyed whole Vietnam villages to kill some v.c. also are all Israelis the same as the govt? If they are I guess that means you were a Republican from 2016 to 2020 but now you are a democrat. I am guessing more than 50% of Jews do not support what bibi and his right wing cabinet goons are doing in Gaza. And yes this looks like what is happening certainly fits the definition of ethnic cleansing and genocide as understand these terms. This doesn't feel like Israel defending itself this feels like the indiscriminate killing of civilians and children. Yes Hamas terrorists also did indiscriminate killing with a racial hatred aspect too it but to me, the official Israel government policies of killing and land dispossession should not be condoned especially as official u.s. policy. And when you turn the water and power off to a 2M+ community that should tell you quite a bit about the government mindset
The highest price is always paid by the civilian populace. Death, disability and starvation are the results of war.
But wars do not need to happen...ever! Women would never willingly send their child to fight a battle that they are not directly involved with. Wars are committed by the egos of men! MEN!! I will repeat this every single day.
Women figure in armies of defense and in guerilla warfare. There are women combatants in the IDF, of course. There was the Long-Haired Army in Vietnam - I interviewed a number of them, and some men who told me that they would never have defeated the U.S. without them. Radical Islam is different. https://www.timesofisrael.com/encouraging-our-children-to-kill-themselves-for-palestine-is-a-mothers-most-glorious-duty-says-wife-of-hamas-mp/
I feel you, Lucien. This is really painful.
Since when are we supposed to digest all this stuff? I’m trying to sort out which of my friends has canceled me and who it’s safe to call (this goes for family as well)!
In the meantime, l no longer wear my Israeli-IDF hat because l don’t want to normalize destruction. My common parlance is to self-identify as a Jew when addressing a person l expect to have future conversations with.
As senior auditors at a college, we frequently have conversations with teachers and students. Surprisingly, although the campus is racially and culturally integrated, there are no protests.
A far cry from the radical 60’s and 70’s when we went to school and were vocal, demonstrative and demanded accountability from the administrators!
In many ways we are fortunate to have made the decision to return to the university after our children have grown and our employment has tapered down.
It forces us to confront our diminishing influence on society and recognize the limits of endurance.
I think the 60s protests were different in at least one key respect: "we" were being hijacked into funding and serving in a war we evaluated as immoral, counter-productive, wasteful, absurdly lacking in evidence of any direct threat to the US (I recall a routine use of the argument, "What are the North Vietnamese going to do, cross the Pacific aboard thousand of sampans, bom the West Coast, and invade California?")
The US has aided and supported the State of Israel for many decades, but it's just not the same thing - plus, to bring up "crass material considerations," most of that money is spent here, in the US, on weapons and other assistance, and it's also not a one-way street: Israel has helped us and NATO and "Five Eyes" allies of the US in numerous instances, particularly against international terrorists,
Great that you're auditing classes at a college, I still am in the process of arranging a post-pandemic reentry to finish some coursework here at the U-of M-Twin Cities.
Here is who/what Israel is up against: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hamas-official-says-group-will-repeat-oct-7-attack-twice-and-three-times-to-destroy-israel/?mibextid=Zxz2cZ&fbclid=IwAR1RbKucxXFp2oTNd_wLAHqcnzb7xGMw5ekzKdKqWrbp6VeV2eRsTCkoANo