I will likely be flamed for this, but I am bothered by the fact that there is no mention of the number of innocent Palestinian civilians who have died, the number of which exceeds the number of Israeli deaths. I will agree that the Hamas attack was terrorism, and barbaric. But then I see the suffering that's going on in Gaza, with hospitals overflowing with children burned so badly they're fused to their mothers, thousands of terrified people fleeing for their lives thanks to a completely unworkable evacuation order, people starving and thirsty because water, fuel and electric have been cut off, and it's hard not to think I'm observing a different kind of terrorism.
Hamas is evil, yes, as are its sponsor states. But surely there's a way to bring them to heel that doesn't result in so much human suffering. I do believe that Israel has the right to defend itself, but this eye-for-an-eye approach that both sides have employed since 1948 is a never-ending death spiral.
You won't be flamed by me -- but I was fuming as I read those statistics. As if no Palestinians have been killed, by both the military and civilians? As if the Israeli settlers haven't been offering provocation for years?
The majority of Gaza voters chose Hamas to govern them. Haven't seen them take to the streets to protest the killing of 1300+ Israelis and foreign nationals by Hamas's mil wing or by Islamic Jihad.
There are circa 2M folk in Gaza. That is far more than the 30k Hamas and Islamic Jihad fighters. Civs could own the streets, hence Gaza. Their silence is tacit approval. Suspect >half the population are wimmin and girls. They can own the streets because they are more powerful than men. And more courageous by far.
Hamas and Islamic Jihad brought war and death to Israel and by doing so brought war back home with them to Gaza. Hamas is responsible for the safety and security of Gazans. Instead, they put Gazans in danger and in harm's way. And did so knowingly and willingly. Meanwhile Hamas hide in holes in the ground while leaving their wimmin, children, and elders to face thirst, starvation, illness, injury and death instead of them.
Easy to say, but "wimmin" in Arab cultures ten to be fairly well subjugated. And just because the people of Gaza chose Hamas to govern them (ya gonna say no to Hamas?) doesn't mean their human existence has less worth than anyone else. Shall we say that America [kinda] chose Trump and therefore we should all live in misery? Hamas is evil, no doubt, all I'm saying is there's got to be a better way to subdue them than mass misery.
-That very individual, cultural, and societal subjugation is the very reason am advancing that they act collectively. What more will it take? That is the point. They must turn on Hamas or else watch their own seeds die of thirst, hunger or disease (unsanitary conditions). What Mum would do that? Not my late Mum nor late wife. Not for any man. Never mind one who subjugated them.
-Gentle reminder, a minority of voters elected Trump due to the bizarro Electoral College.
-Israel controls the extent of the siege. They can tighten or loosen depending on the conditions and circumstances. And they have shown just that by tightening what already existed as a result of Hamas/Islamic Jihad's bad acts. They need reason to loosen it and are likely to do so on their timeline. Jews aren't heartless, au contraire.
Hitler had the full-fledged support of the German people, and they paid the price in massive suffering when they were defeated. Palestinians support Hamas, who keep them impoverished and more disempowered than they are by the Israelis. They have never even bothered to set up desalination system for water in Gaza - just building tunnells and stocking them with arsenal. I have just learned, on social media, about a Palestinian peace activist who hates Hamas - I hope they don't kill him, wherever he is now. https://www.foxnews.com/us/palestinian-peace-activist-slams-americans-siding-hamas-war-israel-unhuman
I heard on the news today on MSNBC as that is the only station I listen to when I am able to watch as it's very upsetting to me! They mentioned that there has been no elections in Gaza since 2006! The people need to vote Hamas out if that's what is necessary! Hamas is the one who is destroying them as Hamas doesn't care about it's own people!
I would say it is terrorism not even lightly veiled as an act of war against the Jewish state. But, your main point is absolutely correct. We, as in the citizens of the United States , have become normalized or , maybe numbed is a better word, to acts of political terrorism disguised as "free speech" or "honest debate." You know what occurred in Charlottesville or on the internet every day where right wing fascist organizations exchange "thoughts" on what to do about the "problems" caused by all the African Americans, Hispanics, Jews and Muslims who are mucking up the nation.
Like it or not our commitment to freedom of expression and unfettered exchange of opinion is being weaponized against us. The fine line between what is an intellectually honest and candid exchange of thought is being blurred by the hate mongers to turn some of the very principles of a participative democracy against itself. Good example in recent days was the petition by some to support Hamas in its actions against Israel. Justifying acts of bestiality and inhumanity as just cause against the repression of Palestinians over the years by Israel. IOW crossing the line between principle and common sense and hiding behind "free speech." to support terrorism no matter the cost.
We had better figure out a way to preserve our freedoms without giving some among us the weapons and ammunition to do us in in the process. We are learning not all free speech is free.
To respond to your question Lucian, yes, I think so. The prevalence of guns in America and resulting epidemic of mass shootings and gun deaths is a social problem. At the end of the day, death is death, and in the case of gun violence we're doing it to ourselves. But I wouldn't call it terrorism unless it has an underlying political motive reflecting an extremist ideological movement.
That said, there's a gray area and undercurrent to American gun violence that is approaching terrorism. When the mass shootings are targeting minority populations, the mass shooters are "lone wolves" espousing hateful ideologies, and these ideologies are subtly or not so subtly mirrored by the rhetoric of right-wing politicians and news sources (e.g., the "great replacement" theory) then, yes. At least some of American gun violence should be called out as terrorism.
I'm basically a left leaning person but I have to say, some of the reaction to the Hamas attack has left me stunned. I'd usually only call out the embrace of terrorism by the political, call it the fascist, right. But I think we also need to be aware of embrace of terrorism by the left, and what it all means for those of us who still believe in liberal democracy.
Agree w/the sentiment however a tiny slice of the left cannot be then conflated into "by the left". And can you cite examples of that slice "embrace of terrorism"?
FTR: have an aversion to the word terrorism. What Hamas and Islamic Jihad engaged in is barbarism not unlike Attila the Hun and Genghis Khan. That would include the massacre of the innocents, wimmin, prego-wimmin, elders, little ones, and babies, some by flame. Preferred method of barbarians is to kill with extreme prejudice, overkill, engage in rape and pillaging.
Disagree "death is death". There are distinctions with difference in deaths, not exclusive to violent deaths. Be glad the dead don't speak.
No, thank you for expressing yourself, then clarifying in a manner all people of good will do. Am a mothafucka by most definitions and admittedly not an easy read. Especially when it comes to all-things war/violence. My ethos-pathos-logos then is better expressed as ethos-PATHOS-PATHOS-PATHOS (since I can't display 10 to the 3rd power or haven't learned yet) logos.
Off topic, but I want this idea out there. Five sane House Republicans, if there are that many, could deliver the ultimate Fuck You to Trump and his MAGAts by going to Jeffries and saying, “Liz Cheney for Speaker!”
"If we define terrorism as the killing of civilians outside the rules of war, which is how the Hamas attack on Israel is being defined, and we add the killings in this country by white supremacists and other extremists to the number of mass shootings we have every year, including school shootings, then we cannot avoid the conclusion that terrorism is happening practically every day right here in the United States of America."
Your entire Salon piece, to include the last paragraph, is the reason I avoid the use of the word terror and all its derivatives. The English language prides itself for its exactness and for its breadth and depth of words. None are more nebulous than terror and its derivatives as you captured by bringing forth other examples that are equal to or greater than its popular and/or accepted application. And those are the physical elements of terror which by its true definition is far more mental and emotional. Proffer: the family members of those taken hostage by Hamas and/or Islamic Jihad demonstrate terror at the thought of not knowing what their family member is enduring. The hostages are living in terror. Contrast that with the Israeli father of the 8yr old slaughtered by a Hamas member who applauded and shouted YES when he learned his beloved daughter died rather than being captured and held as a hostage.
Now as to the rules and laws of war. Chuckle at that construct as well because it advances the notion war is fought by agreed upon rules and laws with the understanding those who disobey them face some sort of reckoning from the civilized society(s) who engaged in WAR, the most uncivilized act of them all. Sounds good in theory yet is the rara avis in practice. The Laws of War and all its rules can only apply when all sides engage in the conflict agree to abide by the same Laws and rules. Has never happened in the post-WW2 era. Not once. Nevah has a war been stopped because a side claimed the other was unfair by not abiding by the Laws and rules. When I hear US ret. GOs or diplomats invoke the term I want to throw up.
America is the nation that is the epitome of Catch-22. The number one proponent for law and rule based war yet will fight one w/o declaring it a war. Leaves me with a Max Headroom shake. No declared war means no POWs. No POWs means the captured need not be afforded the Geneva Conventions because they are mere combatants (whatever that means). Therefore, Torture by Memo is fine as well as indefinite confinement. A mere combatant means the mil doesn't have absolute authority when it comes to the "prisoner". That loophole allows non-mil to remove them and interrogate them w/o the mil present and leaves it up to the non-mil to return them or not. US mil is trained and charged to protect a POW as if the POW was one of their own, read no harm shall come to them. No need to address the battlefield. The battlefield has its "civilized" exceptions to all the laws and rules under 2sterilized word, collateral damage. It applies to civs or civ infrastructure which include livestock, crops, electricity and on and on. US media never presses their paid commentator GOs what is exempted from those laws and rules in combat and non-combat situations.
Already more than one stated a siege of Gaza is against the Law and rules of War as if Mosul Ramada or Fallujah happened in the 12th-C. Saying it again, am for a siege to buy time.
Time to send teams of Mossad and Sayeret Matkal to the USAF base in Qatar and to the NATO base in Turkey to locate the head of the Hamas snake. Not to cut it off, to electronically eavesdrop on him to discover who in Gaza and he talking to in Gaza and where they are located (GPS). Then snatch the snake if possible, kill him if not. Yes, that means the US has a hand in that matter. So what, Haniyeh is wanted by the USG. Don't care about relations w/Qatar or Turkey. They can be smoothed over 100s of different ways.
A siege is a lesser evil than a ground invasion proceeded by bombardment. Can see strategic bombardment meant to open pathways into Gaza for ground insertions but not a full-blown invasion. Looking at the BDA pics looks like a pattern is emerging in northern Gaza. Fingers crossed it is for inserting teams to locate tunnels which logically must be located in the north, south and along the coast. Unfinished ones on the longest side, the eastern border w/Israel.
Clearing civs in the north of Gaza as best as possible allows IDF to bring in ground penetrating radar (works to 100ft down) to locate tunnel entrances/exits that have to surface close to the border. From there they can be tracked easier. And oddly Gaza is assisting in the north by using heavy equipment to clear streets of debris for both an insertion and locating tunnels. IDF has to squeeze the Gaza population from both the north and south to have a better chance at locating the tunnel complexes. Sadly, there is no such thing as seen on teevee or in movies, knockout gas. One must assume the IDF has units extensively trained on how to clear tunnels. Point being Hamas can be driven underground because it sees its tunnel complex as a safe haven. Make the enemy do what they are most comfortable doing best. It is not counter-intuitive. The goal has to be turn Hamas's sanctuary into a prison, When an enemy is most comfortable it is much easier to knock them out of that comfort zone cuz comfort is the worst condition to be in when attacked.. Ask the 3/4 IDF base commanders who came under Hamas/Islamic Jihad attack last Saturday morning.
Hamas/Islamic Jihad leveraged IDF's strength against them, the border fortifications which they felt safe and comfortable behind. Do the same with the tunnel complex and the same w/Ismail Haniyeh living the good life hiding behind Qatar or Turkey. At least try before sending troops to their death and condemning 1000s more of Gaza civs to theirs which likely will lead to Hezbollah unleashing rockets, missiles and fighters into northern Israel. I hate war so much that will always in all ways try to shorten them with the least amoynt of death and destruction. Only wimmin can stop WAR.
Post-post Edit: collateral damage is the mil's version of gawd works in mysterious ways and/or its gawd's will.
Like ~Shadowcloud~ I chuckle (laugh out loud in despair) at the notion that war has rules and, by extension, if you stay within the lines, war is, what's the word, "legitimate." As far as I can tell, war played by the rules brings terror to everyone caught up in it, especially civilians. Hamas's offensive sure looks like large-scale terrorism to me, although I guess by its lights it's an act in an ongoing war whose stated objective is the obliteration of the state of Israel. I don't believe that stated objective comes within anyone's "rules of war," but since I don't really understand the concept, I might be wrong. Isn't Russia intent on obliterating the state of Ukraine? The Republicans seem OK with that.
What I wish more people were paying attention to is the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) order for more than one million Palestinian civilians in Gaza to evacuate their homes. These people, needless to say, have nowhere to go; given the situation in Gaza since the Israeli (and Egyptian) blockade of Gaza in 2007, I suspect that those who had somewhere to go and the resources to get there have mostly left. The order reminds me of the Ottoman Turkey's 1915 deportation of its Armenian population from Anatolia to the Syrian desert. Hundreds of thousands died. This is now referred to, everywhere but in Turkey, as "the Armenian genocide." Does Israel really want to follow in Turkey's footsteps?
Much remains unknown at this point, including whether this draconian order will be carried out, but my hunch is that the old truism "Guilt turns to hostility" is in play. Within Israel there is widespread criticism of the Netanyahu government and the IDF for their unpreparedness. If there are indeed any rules of war, retaliating against civilians for one's own shortcomings must surely be against them.
If there is one Law and one Rule in War is everyone is engaged in their own. Doesn't matter how tight or small of a unit, whether mil or civ. No 2people feel or see war or is affected in the same way even when shoulder to shoulder. Applies even to co-joined twins. The experience is common, that's where it ends.
Am not surprised by a single response to Lucian's words or to mine. Want wimmin to go all in on the subject because they endure more layers and the fullest wrath of war than men. That's the reason I will always and in all ways say only wimmin can put an end to war.
I agree, and IMO if more wimmin/women/womyn recognized our interests as different from those of the men in our lives, we'd do better at it.
So true about differing responses to war. It brings some people alive. Other people it destroys forever. One of my uncles was among the latter. My father, who survived, never talked about it -- but when I read _Catch-22_ for the first time not long after I graduated high school, my father told me that book described his WWII experience better than anything else he'd ever read. He served in North Africa and Italy. I treasure that memory because he hardly ever talked about the war. I get this now. War is a whole other language that we civilians who are spared it do not speak.
All true. When I opened the email, I was very much hoping you were going to address the deafening silence on the part of our liberals and progressives many of whom won’t even talk about it as a terrorism attack. The 35 student groups at Harvard were a stunning revelation of what being overly woke is, putting principles over the reality staring them in the face, which is one reason why they are so reviled by the right. A pathetic refusal to deal with reality as it is. No question, what’s happening now as Israel flattens Palestine is a tragedy but it is war, look what this country did during World War II, during which 6 million Jews perished. Yesterday was a Hamas day of rage where they were stabbing Jews around the world that barely got any press. But the whining and crying about Palestine? When AOC makes a statement in support of the Palestinians, I’m extremely disappointed, but not surprised. I can barely go to my Facebook feed anymore because it is non-stop photos of beautiful young butchered Israelis. I don’t know the answer to the situation nobody does. And I’m afraid that Israel’s ground offensive in Palestine will turn out to be, as is being reported, a big trap. There is no easy answer, but until the left of this country acknowledges the problem we have within this country with antisemitism and the problem of Hamas, we’re in trouble.
As to your question "Were you aware of any of these terrorist attacks in Israel — which, taken cumulatively, caused the deaths of more Israelis than the total killed last Saturday? I wasn’t." I was, save for the huge numbers. For whatever reason, I've long known that random attacks on busses in Israel were a thing.
You were a hard news guy there, while I was a feature writer -- hence my first working trip there came with a driver and translator and relatively little danger. It is an absolutely beautiful country, loaded with history and blood.
Until you wrote it, I never equated their terrorism with ours - but of course armed guards outside Temples and Synagogues validate your point. Almost like a network of lymphatics, trouble in Israel finds its way to Jews and Jewish institutions in America and in European countries.
Ever was it thus, God help us ... though He seems to have chosen to abstain from interfering in this particular matter for 4000 years.
Given history on both sides, President Biden make abandonment of Israeli settlements in West Bank as condition for full US support in Gaza. Eradicate Hamas, then help citizens form a new government.
I will likely be flamed for this, but I am bothered by the fact that there is no mention of the number of innocent Palestinian civilians who have died, the number of which exceeds the number of Israeli deaths. I will agree that the Hamas attack was terrorism, and barbaric. But then I see the suffering that's going on in Gaza, with hospitals overflowing with children burned so badly they're fused to their mothers, thousands of terrified people fleeing for their lives thanks to a completely unworkable evacuation order, people starving and thirsty because water, fuel and electric have been cut off, and it's hard not to think I'm observing a different kind of terrorism.
Hamas is evil, yes, as are its sponsor states. But surely there's a way to bring them to heel that doesn't result in so much human suffering. I do believe that Israel has the right to defend itself, but this eye-for-an-eye approach that both sides have employed since 1948 is a never-ending death spiral.
You won't be flamed by me -- but I was fuming as I read those statistics. As if no Palestinians have been killed, by both the military and civilians? As if the Israeli settlers haven't been offering provocation for years?
A never-ending death spiral - that's a perfect description.
The majority of Gaza voters chose Hamas to govern them. Haven't seen them take to the streets to protest the killing of 1300+ Israelis and foreign nationals by Hamas's mil wing or by Islamic Jihad.
There are circa 2M folk in Gaza. That is far more than the 30k Hamas and Islamic Jihad fighters. Civs could own the streets, hence Gaza. Their silence is tacit approval. Suspect >half the population are wimmin and girls. They can own the streets because they are more powerful than men. And more courageous by far.
Hamas and Islamic Jihad brought war and death to Israel and by doing so brought war back home with them to Gaza. Hamas is responsible for the safety and security of Gazans. Instead, they put Gazans in danger and in harm's way. And did so knowingly and willingly. Meanwhile Hamas hide in holes in the ground while leaving their wimmin, children, and elders to face thirst, starvation, illness, injury and death instead of them.
Easy to say, but "wimmin" in Arab cultures ten to be fairly well subjugated. And just because the people of Gaza chose Hamas to govern them (ya gonna say no to Hamas?) doesn't mean their human existence has less worth than anyone else. Shall we say that America [kinda] chose Trump and therefore we should all live in misery? Hamas is evil, no doubt, all I'm saying is there's got to be a better way to subdue them than mass misery.
-That very individual, cultural, and societal subjugation is the very reason am advancing that they act collectively. What more will it take? That is the point. They must turn on Hamas or else watch their own seeds die of thirst, hunger or disease (unsanitary conditions). What Mum would do that? Not my late Mum nor late wife. Not for any man. Never mind one who subjugated them.
-Gentle reminder, a minority of voters elected Trump due to the bizarro Electoral College.
-Israel controls the extent of the siege. They can tighten or loosen depending on the conditions and circumstances. And they have shown just that by tightening what already existed as a result of Hamas/Islamic Jihad's bad acts. They need reason to loosen it and are likely to do so on their timeline. Jews aren't heartless, au contraire.
Hitler had the full-fledged support of the German people, and they paid the price in massive suffering when they were defeated. Palestinians support Hamas, who keep them impoverished and more disempowered than they are by the Israelis. They have never even bothered to set up desalination system for water in Gaza - just building tunnells and stocking them with arsenal. I have just learned, on social media, about a Palestinian peace activist who hates Hamas - I hope they don't kill him, wherever he is now. https://www.foxnews.com/us/palestinian-peace-activist-slams-americans-siding-hamas-war-israel-unhuman
I heard on the news today on MSNBC as that is the only station I listen to when I am able to watch as it's very upsetting to me! They mentioned that there has been no elections in Gaza since 2006! The people need to vote Hamas out if that's what is necessary! Hamas is the one who is destroying them as Hamas doesn't care about it's own people!
Brilliant. And sad. And painful. As Pete Seeger said, “We will they [we] ever learn?”
Agree. And one must unlearn the bad ways in order to have room to learn the good ways.
Deep thinking and appreciated. Between Hamas, Hezbollah and the Russian Army we truly have our hands full.
I would say it is terrorism not even lightly veiled as an act of war against the Jewish state. But, your main point is absolutely correct. We, as in the citizens of the United States , have become normalized or , maybe numbed is a better word, to acts of political terrorism disguised as "free speech" or "honest debate." You know what occurred in Charlottesville or on the internet every day where right wing fascist organizations exchange "thoughts" on what to do about the "problems" caused by all the African Americans, Hispanics, Jews and Muslims who are mucking up the nation.
Like it or not our commitment to freedom of expression and unfettered exchange of opinion is being weaponized against us. The fine line between what is an intellectually honest and candid exchange of thought is being blurred by the hate mongers to turn some of the very principles of a participative democracy against itself. Good example in recent days was the petition by some to support Hamas in its actions against Israel. Justifying acts of bestiality and inhumanity as just cause against the repression of Palestinians over the years by Israel. IOW crossing the line between principle and common sense and hiding behind "free speech." to support terrorism no matter the cost.
We had better figure out a way to preserve our freedoms without giving some among us the weapons and ammunition to do us in in the process. We are learning not all free speech is free.
To respond to your question Lucian, yes, I think so. The prevalence of guns in America and resulting epidemic of mass shootings and gun deaths is a social problem. At the end of the day, death is death, and in the case of gun violence we're doing it to ourselves. But I wouldn't call it terrorism unless it has an underlying political motive reflecting an extremist ideological movement.
That said, there's a gray area and undercurrent to American gun violence that is approaching terrorism. When the mass shootings are targeting minority populations, the mass shooters are "lone wolves" espousing hateful ideologies, and these ideologies are subtly or not so subtly mirrored by the rhetoric of right-wing politicians and news sources (e.g., the "great replacement" theory) then, yes. At least some of American gun violence should be called out as terrorism.
I'm basically a left leaning person but I have to say, some of the reaction to the Hamas attack has left me stunned. I'd usually only call out the embrace of terrorism by the political, call it the fascist, right. But I think we also need to be aware of embrace of terrorism by the left, and what it all means for those of us who still believe in liberal democracy.
Agree w/the sentiment however a tiny slice of the left cannot be then conflated into "by the left". And can you cite examples of that slice "embrace of terrorism"?
FTR: have an aversion to the word terrorism. What Hamas and Islamic Jihad engaged in is barbarism not unlike Attila the Hun and Genghis Khan. That would include the massacre of the innocents, wimmin, prego-wimmin, elders, little ones, and babies, some by flame. Preferred method of barbarians is to kill with extreme prejudice, overkill, engage in rape and pillaging.
Disagree "death is death". There are distinctions with difference in deaths, not exclusive to violent deaths. Be glad the dead don't speak.
Thanks Shadowcloud, point taken. I was thinking of the Harvard letter and Times Square demonstration, which I found disturbing.
No, thank you for expressing yourself, then clarifying in a manner all people of good will do. Am a mothafucka by most definitions and admittedly not an easy read. Especially when it comes to all-things war/violence. My ethos-pathos-logos then is better expressed as ethos-PATHOS-PATHOS-PATHOS (since I can't display 10 to the 3rd power or haven't learned yet) logos.
Let’s find out what Mel Brooks has to say about this. As a wizened movie star from Brooklyn with a stellar perigee,
his historic mockeries bring absurdity to painstaking perfection.
Agree to all. Would add another biting, witty social commentator, Will Rogers. (Was obligated to get in one of my own kind)
Off topic, but I want this idea out there. Five sane House Republicans, if there are that many, could deliver the ultimate Fuck You to Trump and his MAGAts by going to Jeffries and saying, “Liz Cheney for Speaker!”
"If we define terrorism as the killing of civilians outside the rules of war, which is how the Hamas attack on Israel is being defined, and we add the killings in this country by white supremacists and other extremists to the number of mass shootings we have every year, including school shootings, then we cannot avoid the conclusion that terrorism is happening practically every day right here in the United States of America."
Your entire Salon piece, to include the last paragraph, is the reason I avoid the use of the word terror and all its derivatives. The English language prides itself for its exactness and for its breadth and depth of words. None are more nebulous than terror and its derivatives as you captured by bringing forth other examples that are equal to or greater than its popular and/or accepted application. And those are the physical elements of terror which by its true definition is far more mental and emotional. Proffer: the family members of those taken hostage by Hamas and/or Islamic Jihad demonstrate terror at the thought of not knowing what their family member is enduring. The hostages are living in terror. Contrast that with the Israeli father of the 8yr old slaughtered by a Hamas member who applauded and shouted YES when he learned his beloved daughter died rather than being captured and held as a hostage.
Now as to the rules and laws of war. Chuckle at that construct as well because it advances the notion war is fought by agreed upon rules and laws with the understanding those who disobey them face some sort of reckoning from the civilized society(s) who engaged in WAR, the most uncivilized act of them all. Sounds good in theory yet is the rara avis in practice. The Laws of War and all its rules can only apply when all sides engage in the conflict agree to abide by the same Laws and rules. Has never happened in the post-WW2 era. Not once. Nevah has a war been stopped because a side claimed the other was unfair by not abiding by the Laws and rules. When I hear US ret. GOs or diplomats invoke the term I want to throw up.
America is the nation that is the epitome of Catch-22. The number one proponent for law and rule based war yet will fight one w/o declaring it a war. Leaves me with a Max Headroom shake. No declared war means no POWs. No POWs means the captured need not be afforded the Geneva Conventions because they are mere combatants (whatever that means). Therefore, Torture by Memo is fine as well as indefinite confinement. A mere combatant means the mil doesn't have absolute authority when it comes to the "prisoner". That loophole allows non-mil to remove them and interrogate them w/o the mil present and leaves it up to the non-mil to return them or not. US mil is trained and charged to protect a POW as if the POW was one of their own, read no harm shall come to them. No need to address the battlefield. The battlefield has its "civilized" exceptions to all the laws and rules under 2sterilized word, collateral damage. It applies to civs or civ infrastructure which include livestock, crops, electricity and on and on. US media never presses their paid commentator GOs what is exempted from those laws and rules in combat and non-combat situations.
Already more than one stated a siege of Gaza is against the Law and rules of War as if Mosul Ramada or Fallujah happened in the 12th-C. Saying it again, am for a siege to buy time.
Time to send teams of Mossad and Sayeret Matkal to the USAF base in Qatar and to the NATO base in Turkey to locate the head of the Hamas snake. Not to cut it off, to electronically eavesdrop on him to discover who in Gaza and he talking to in Gaza and where they are located (GPS). Then snatch the snake if possible, kill him if not. Yes, that means the US has a hand in that matter. So what, Haniyeh is wanted by the USG. Don't care about relations w/Qatar or Turkey. They can be smoothed over 100s of different ways.
A siege is a lesser evil than a ground invasion proceeded by bombardment. Can see strategic bombardment meant to open pathways into Gaza for ground insertions but not a full-blown invasion. Looking at the BDA pics looks like a pattern is emerging in northern Gaza. Fingers crossed it is for inserting teams to locate tunnels which logically must be located in the north, south and along the coast. Unfinished ones on the longest side, the eastern border w/Israel.
Clearing civs in the north of Gaza as best as possible allows IDF to bring in ground penetrating radar (works to 100ft down) to locate tunnel entrances/exits that have to surface close to the border. From there they can be tracked easier. And oddly Gaza is assisting in the north by using heavy equipment to clear streets of debris for both an insertion and locating tunnels. IDF has to squeeze the Gaza population from both the north and south to have a better chance at locating the tunnel complexes. Sadly, there is no such thing as seen on teevee or in movies, knockout gas. One must assume the IDF has units extensively trained on how to clear tunnels. Point being Hamas can be driven underground because it sees its tunnel complex as a safe haven. Make the enemy do what they are most comfortable doing best. It is not counter-intuitive. The goal has to be turn Hamas's sanctuary into a prison, When an enemy is most comfortable it is much easier to knock them out of that comfort zone cuz comfort is the worst condition to be in when attacked.. Ask the 3/4 IDF base commanders who came under Hamas/Islamic Jihad attack last Saturday morning.
Hamas/Islamic Jihad leveraged IDF's strength against them, the border fortifications which they felt safe and comfortable behind. Do the same with the tunnel complex and the same w/Ismail Haniyeh living the good life hiding behind Qatar or Turkey. At least try before sending troops to their death and condemning 1000s more of Gaza civs to theirs which likely will lead to Hezbollah unleashing rockets, missiles and fighters into northern Israel. I hate war so much that will always in all ways try to shorten them with the least amoynt of death and destruction. Only wimmin can stop WAR.
Post-post Edit: collateral damage is the mil's version of gawd works in mysterious ways and/or its gawd's will.
Lol...I can't help it..." leaves me with a Max Headroom shake." That says it all!
I feel like I am constantly shaking my head.
Like ~Shadowcloud~ I chuckle (laugh out loud in despair) at the notion that war has rules and, by extension, if you stay within the lines, war is, what's the word, "legitimate." As far as I can tell, war played by the rules brings terror to everyone caught up in it, especially civilians. Hamas's offensive sure looks like large-scale terrorism to me, although I guess by its lights it's an act in an ongoing war whose stated objective is the obliteration of the state of Israel. I don't believe that stated objective comes within anyone's "rules of war," but since I don't really understand the concept, I might be wrong. Isn't Russia intent on obliterating the state of Ukraine? The Republicans seem OK with that.
What I wish more people were paying attention to is the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) order for more than one million Palestinian civilians in Gaza to evacuate their homes. These people, needless to say, have nowhere to go; given the situation in Gaza since the Israeli (and Egyptian) blockade of Gaza in 2007, I suspect that those who had somewhere to go and the resources to get there have mostly left. The order reminds me of the Ottoman Turkey's 1915 deportation of its Armenian population from Anatolia to the Syrian desert. Hundreds of thousands died. This is now referred to, everywhere but in Turkey, as "the Armenian genocide." Does Israel really want to follow in Turkey's footsteps?
Much remains unknown at this point, including whether this draconian order will be carried out, but my hunch is that the old truism "Guilt turns to hostility" is in play. Within Israel there is widespread criticism of the Netanyahu government and the IDF for their unpreparedness. If there are indeed any rules of war, retaliating against civilians for one's own shortcomings must surely be against them.
Well-said even where I disagree. ~Respect~
If there is one Law and one Rule in War is everyone is engaged in their own. Doesn't matter how tight or small of a unit, whether mil or civ. No 2people feel or see war or is affected in the same way even when shoulder to shoulder. Applies even to co-joined twins. The experience is common, that's where it ends.
Am not surprised by a single response to Lucian's words or to mine. Want wimmin to go all in on the subject because they endure more layers and the fullest wrath of war than men. That's the reason I will always and in all ways say only wimmin can put an end to war.
I agree, and IMO if more wimmin/women/womyn recognized our interests as different from those of the men in our lives, we'd do better at it.
So true about differing responses to war. It brings some people alive. Other people it destroys forever. One of my uncles was among the latter. My father, who survived, never talked about it -- but when I read _Catch-22_ for the first time not long after I graduated high school, my father told me that book described his WWII experience better than anything else he'd ever read. He served in North Africa and Italy. I treasure that memory because he hardly ever talked about the war. I get this now. War is a whole other language that we civilians who are spared it do not speak.
~Brava~
All true. When I opened the email, I was very much hoping you were going to address the deafening silence on the part of our liberals and progressives many of whom won’t even talk about it as a terrorism attack. The 35 student groups at Harvard were a stunning revelation of what being overly woke is, putting principles over the reality staring them in the face, which is one reason why they are so reviled by the right. A pathetic refusal to deal with reality as it is. No question, what’s happening now as Israel flattens Palestine is a tragedy but it is war, look what this country did during World War II, during which 6 million Jews perished. Yesterday was a Hamas day of rage where they were stabbing Jews around the world that barely got any press. But the whining and crying about Palestine? When AOC makes a statement in support of the Palestinians, I’m extremely disappointed, but not surprised. I can barely go to my Facebook feed anymore because it is non-stop photos of beautiful young butchered Israelis. I don’t know the answer to the situation nobody does. And I’m afraid that Israel’s ground offensive in Palestine will turn out to be, as is being reported, a big trap. There is no easy answer, but until the left of this country acknowledges the problem we have within this country with antisemitism and the problem of Hamas, we’re in trouble.
A remarkable column in so many ways.
As to your question "Were you aware of any of these terrorist attacks in Israel — which, taken cumulatively, caused the deaths of more Israelis than the total killed last Saturday? I wasn’t." I was, save for the huge numbers. For whatever reason, I've long known that random attacks on busses in Israel were a thing.
You were a hard news guy there, while I was a feature writer -- hence my first working trip there came with a driver and translator and relatively little danger. It is an absolutely beautiful country, loaded with history and blood.
Until you wrote it, I never equated their terrorism with ours - but of course armed guards outside Temples and Synagogues validate your point. Almost like a network of lymphatics, trouble in Israel finds its way to Jews and Jewish institutions in America and in European countries.
Ever was it thus, God help us ... though He seems to have chosen to abstain from interfering in this particular matter for 4000 years.
One of your best articles. Brilliant is a good descriptor.
These domestic killings are absolutely terrorism and should be treated as such.
Given history on both sides, President Biden make abandonment of Israeli settlements in West Bank as condition for full US support in Gaza. Eradicate Hamas, then help citizens form a new government.
Truth.
Currsntly Where are the US Hospital ships?
Dead is dead. Couldn’t give a f**ks difference if it’s a Hamas group pulling the trigger, or White Supremos, or Israelis seeking retribution.
There’s no moral high ground. None worse than the next.