Thank you for explaining this convoluted mess so well. It seems the title of your essay pretty well sums up the role of our troops over there. And to quote Pete Seeger...”When will we ever learn?”
I know when I was in Vietnam I thought of that war having more kinship with our Western Indian Wars; lots of forts, big and small, and us sallying forth looking for a fight. Very primitive, not much brain power or great Generalship required, but necessary to keep the enemy at bay; the kind of war that can go on forever unless one side quits.
“What the hell are we doing over there” hits the nail on its proverbial head.Seems like we are committing the example of insanity in that we are doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.I often think of our hubris and imagine if the situation were reversed and there were many military bases in our own country occupied by Chinese/Saudis/ pick your country how we would feel? If a military base from pick your pick country-Germany,France etc was operating outside of Cleveland,Ohio how would I/we feel?So much to think about but my personal view is that we have over-extended our military might and are and will continue to feel the repercussions of this stance.
Lucian goes into detail about the reasons the U.S. is present in all of those locations. It's the classic "damned if you do, damned if you don't" although from what he wrote, and from my own understanding of what he wrote, "damned if you don't" outweighs the "damned if you do".
From a report I heard this morning on NPR it sounded like the attack drone "piggybacked" close to a returning US surveillance drone and escaped detection with tragic results. Whether this was a deliberate strategy or an awful coincidence wasn't clear. I once worked part time at a bank and the branch manager was fond of saying that people were staying up all night thinking of ways to rob banks. I suppose it's the same with militants wanting to attack US forces. As to why are we there - sadly my guess would be it's got to do with oil.
I'm not a military member or expert but from what I heard reported yesterday the attack drone may have been so close to our recon drone that radar may not have been able to distinguish it. Whether or not that's technically plausible I can't say. More investigation and reporting needed.
A different report I heard is that the system was briefly shut down to facilitate landing of U.S. drone. This doesn't negate your comment about radar possibly conflating two into one.
(1) Failed and/or failing states are in no one's best interest. History teaches a failed or failing state will succumb to the worst elements both inside and from the outside.
(2) Iraq, Syria, and Jordan are teetering on the edge of failing. All 3 had or have a version of Humpty Dumpty with all power super concentrated in the few. All 3 have control over their traditional capital and not much else, There is no sense of nationalism, rather a dividing religious line.
(3) Tower22- Al Tanf. Is no accident they are damn close to one another. Al Tanf is is hostile territory controlled by militias allied w/ Assad. US had the opportunity to smash those militias during Trump's time when they were harassing and attacking what was known as the SDF (mostly Kurd fighters from across the entire region along with Arabs who had long term ties w/the Kurds) and the handful of US special operators assigned to the SDF.
The SDF and US special operators were hunting daeshbags yet came under continual fire from those pro-Assad militias, many who were Iranian and/or under Iranian influence. IMany not all. Sy has its own version of rich Sy warlords w/private militias. It was those mofos who later teamed up with the Ru mil and staged the attacked on the US basecamp across the Euphrates river in Ir. US mil wanted to strike the militias holding up in the Al Tanf, Trump said no.
So, not only did they team up w/Ru mercs and regulars, the same umbrella group are the ones responsible for the majority of the attacks on US outposts and camps. And who will ever forget Trump handing over the Kurds' ancestral lands to Turkey after all the blood they shed defeating daesh.
(4) President Biden likely to reimpose strict sanctions on Iran and when those militias stick up there heads again punch their ticket for 72 virgins.
(5) Remain disappointed in the people in the area. They hold the key to peace yet prefer to live in fear and violence.
"Iraq, Syria, and Jordan are teetering on the edge of failing. All 3 had or have a version of Humpty Dumpty with all power super concentrated in the few. All 3 have control over their traditional capital and not much else, There is no sense of nationalism, rather a dividing religious line."
Agree. When religion creeps into any civilian governing structure, rot results. There is Reason behind Vatican City as a state, separate and apart from Italy.
Specific to the US, must credit the Framers for NOT including any reference or iteration of God in the 2nd US Constitution and explicitly rejected a religious test for office. Nor has any Amendment added it. (Yet).
Specific to Israel, Bibi harnessed the religious minority to govern the majority of Israelis, including its traditional Arab-Israelis.
Anytime a minority secures power, bad chit follows due to the minority choosing exerting power over good governance. Had been optimistic Americans aged 18-25 would understand the danger of Trump et al instead appear to be looking across the sea to Palestine as their primary cause while simultaneously ignoring how similar Trump's America would be to Bibi's Israel. (And yes, placing the leader's name in front of the nation was intentional).
I was brought up in the Air Force. I love the military and soldiers. In general, soldiers live by a code of honor that I find lacking in civilian life. The services are meritocracies which demand people's best.
Mistakes can cause death. The military offers education and training to those who may not have
many opportunities. My mother was a teacher who volunteered to help soldiers, airmen in our case, earn their GEDs. It is a shame when dedicated soldiers are betrayed by their leaders and politicians.
I really appreciate your detailed explanations of what is, has, or may be going on.
My nightmare. All these forces slowly erode United Srates support for Israel to the point Israel finds itself totally isolated in the region and under assault from Islamic radicals who are different in name but with a common purpose. The destruction of Israel by force.
If , God forbid Israel ever finds itself in a losing position it will do what it has always promised to do. And I would remind everyone there is today only one nation in the region which would readily use nuclear weapons before seeing and its people annihilated.
Those operations in Vietnam were known as search and destroy missions when it reality, many were search and avoid missions. As you suggested, many of our major battles were great blunders. We did not need Hamburger Hill, if we had, we would have stayed and defended it. Ia Drang was another disaster that proved little except how to drop a battalion in the middle of a huge hornet's nest that could have destroyed us had we not had overwhelming artillery and air support. As you noted, we fought, withdrew, and gained nothing except concept validation for the Air Moblile effort. The folks on the ground were very well trained and had been a cohesive unit for several months, i.e., they were trained and they had a cadre that had worked together for a substantual period of time. In the end of that engagement, the second battalion was ambused and they took devestating losses. FOR WHAT? The units that followed were not highly trained and in a year, they were sent home. The leadership was changed about every 6 months. The VC and NVA were there for the duration.
We can't police the entire world. We can't even recruit good young men anymore. The Navy does not even require a HS education anymore and that is fine. If we are gonna defend the world, we need cannon fodder. Send the marines, that's what they area trained for, to die. Again, we can't defend the world. Israel needs to take over the role of caretaker of the world. They don't need us and they are cut throat. They actually believe they are god's chosen people. Hah...
We need to gradually evaluate our presence in many areas and withdraw where we are not needed which is most of those areas. We are not the only country in the world. Spain, France, the UK have militaries. Let them take on the role. We also have the Austrailians and the Koreans who are really good soldiers. Some of those units are far better than American units.
No more body bags. We need restraint in the middle east, Africa, and South America. Send the Brits or the French. They are using us and we don't need anymore bodybags at the airport. Let Israel handle it. They are very powerful. They got all emotional and over reacted to the tragedy on 10/7. They need to stand down and stop killing civilians. Some will defend the Israelis, but there is no defending the apartheid government.
NO MORE BODY BAGS.
I STILL RECALL THE STENCH OF BODIES.
Let's not go there.
I will defer to the great legal minds. OHHH, why did we have such nice housing where these folks were killed? Why must we have enlisted and officer's clubs, commissaries and air conditioned quarters in a "stealth war?"
The great legal minds will of course comment as they always do.
As usual Lucian hit out of the park. In Vietnam I served as an Infantryman with the 101st Airborne and spent some time at a firebase called "Ripcord". Google it and read the wikipedia version the go back to your search and go down and find the Ripcord Association version which is the participates version. A little more detail and ties it all together.
If I had to guess...what we are doing there is protecting the only nation in the whole damned Middle East is not Muslim Arab. You summed it up perfectly. Every other country is mad at some other country for reasons that are not solvable because they are based in historical religious persecution. Europe tore herself apart for 30 plus years over religion. It’s why the US doesn’t have a state supported church. Religion has been the cause of more world wide human suffering than any epidemic has been. Israel is Jewish. Israel is Semitic,
Hamas and all its cousins are anti-Semitic, but at rock bottom the Middle East is full of Semites who absolutely hate the Jews. It’s the anger of a son who lost favor with his father.
Israel needs to defend their country. We owe them nothing and they are drawing us into their personal conflict. Israel is a great country with nukes and the should defend themselves. There is a reason there are so few Israelis in the world and half chose to live in the US.
I’m quite aware of the OED. It’s a solid but concrete dictionary. There is no nuance. The Middle East is full of nuance. Sunni, Shia, Alewite, Druze. All Muslim. All full of rage with each other. Very much like Christianity in the 17th Century. Please see 30 Years War in the OED.
I'm well aware of the 30 years war and the wars waged in the name of religions since time immemorial. I know Hamas, and many other Arabs, are anti-Jewish. They cannot be anti-Semitic. That is a term that has been confiscated by the Jewish community to be synonymous with anti-Jewish or anti-Israel. It is not. Hamas is a terrorist organization. I have no disagreement with that. I do have a disagreement with your use of the term anti-Semitic being used to describe Semites. There is no nuance. It is simply incorrect terminology.
Well...yes. Both groups are Semitic. However, the only Semites that Hamas want to remove from the world are Jews. Therefore, Hamas is anti-Semitic. I repeat: this is anger of sons who lost favor with their father.
Abraham had many sons. One was Isaac,son of Sarah, Abraham’s wife. One was Ishmael, son of Hagar, Abraham’s concubine. Please read appropriate story in Genesis.
Also, Muhammad wrote that his followers should treat the Jews, sons of Abraham, with respect.
Excellent column, Lucian. Thank you for the analysis. Question: what are the reasonable alternatives to the "target patrol" strategy when the identity and location of the enemy are unclear? If we are repeatedly finding ourselves using this strategy, wasteful in lives and resources, shouldn't we be looking at something else?
Why don't we just get the hell out of the middle east entirely. As you say our guys are targets - cannnon fodder. It's kind of a catch-22...they only attack because they don't want us there and we're only there because they attack. Let them have the whole damn desert! Israel can defend itself with our help. Why do we have to be there at all? I think it's crazy
They only want our money and our latest military equipment! We want their OIL but yes, get out! We will never understand them or want to accept or share their lives!
Don't forget the war in the Philippines 1899-1902. We always have such logical explanations for USA foreign meddling-our soldiers getting killed (until we didn't). There might be better ways of protecting Israel than stirring up all hornets in a 1,000 mile radius from our mideast desert archipelago. How about a single slap at Tehran in the form of a nuclear bomb fired from a satellite when wind direction just right. The fallout will create sickness among downwind ISIS fighters reducing their will to cause trouble while sending a message to Iranian trouble-makers. By the time the radiation reaches our friends in Israel It will be no stronger than the fallout reaching the spectators with sunglasses standing at gas stations in Nevada desert watching a 1950s bomb test. This dribbling, long drawn out killing of our lower middle class young men is simply not fair. Let's draft all Ivy league grads for our desert bases and watch solutions pop up like flowers after a spring rain.
Biden's backed himself right into a corner, by supporting, financing and sending Israel weapons for the last few months. We should have tremendous compassion for each and every unnecessary death due to war in the Middle East, and zero sympathy for Netenyahu and Biden.
Biden's chances for reelection grow weaker by the day and he brought it on his compromised AIPAC funded self. Tough luck.
Thank you for explaining this convoluted mess so well. It seems the title of your essay pretty well sums up the role of our troops over there. And to quote Pete Seeger...”When will we ever learn?”
Thanks for the Seeger quote. Miss him and his voice.....
Same here
I can still hear that voice.
Where have all the flowers gone.....
I know when I was in Vietnam I thought of that war having more kinship with our Western Indian Wars; lots of forts, big and small, and us sallying forth looking for a fight. Very primitive, not much brain power or great Generalship required, but necessary to keep the enemy at bay; the kind of war that can go on forever unless one side quits.
“What the hell are we doing over there” hits the nail on its proverbial head.Seems like we are committing the example of insanity in that we are doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.I often think of our hubris and imagine if the situation were reversed and there were many military bases in our own country occupied by Chinese/Saudis/ pick your country how we would feel? If a military base from pick your pick country-Germany,France etc was operating outside of Cleveland,Ohio how would I/we feel?So much to think about but my personal view is that we have over-extended our military might and are and will continue to feel the repercussions of this stance.
Bravo!
Lucian goes into detail about the reasons the U.S. is present in all of those locations. It's the classic "damned if you do, damned if you don't" although from what he wrote, and from my own understanding of what he wrote, "damned if you don't" outweighs the "damned if you do".
See Shadowcloud's post below.
From a report I heard this morning on NPR it sounded like the attack drone "piggybacked" close to a returning US surveillance drone and escaped detection with tragic results. Whether this was a deliberate strategy or an awful coincidence wasn't clear. I once worked part time at a bank and the branch manager was fond of saying that people were staying up all night thinking of ways to rob banks. I suppose it's the same with militants wanting to attack US forces. As to why are we there - sadly my guess would be it's got to do with oil.
Banks don't send spy devices into every home in their communities (yet) to try to discover potential bank robbers.
Why don’t our drones have IFF so our radar can query and identify. No proper squawk - blow it out of the sky !,
I'm not a military member or expert but from what I heard reported yesterday the attack drone may have been so close to our recon drone that radar may not have been able to distinguish it. Whether or not that's technically plausible I can't say. More investigation and reporting needed.
A different report I heard is that the system was briefly shut down to facilitate landing of U.S. drone. This doesn't negate your comment about radar possibly conflating two into one.
I hadn't heard this report but it def could explain what happened. Tragic.
Like it when ya get all worked up.
(1) Failed and/or failing states are in no one's best interest. History teaches a failed or failing state will succumb to the worst elements both inside and from the outside.
(2) Iraq, Syria, and Jordan are teetering on the edge of failing. All 3 had or have a version of Humpty Dumpty with all power super concentrated in the few. All 3 have control over their traditional capital and not much else, There is no sense of nationalism, rather a dividing religious line.
(3) Tower22- Al Tanf. Is no accident they are damn close to one another. Al Tanf is is hostile territory controlled by militias allied w/ Assad. US had the opportunity to smash those militias during Trump's time when they were harassing and attacking what was known as the SDF (mostly Kurd fighters from across the entire region along with Arabs who had long term ties w/the Kurds) and the handful of US special operators assigned to the SDF.
The SDF and US special operators were hunting daeshbags yet came under continual fire from those pro-Assad militias, many who were Iranian and/or under Iranian influence. IMany not all. Sy has its own version of rich Sy warlords w/private militias. It was those mofos who later teamed up with the Ru mil and staged the attacked on the US basecamp across the Euphrates river in Ir. US mil wanted to strike the militias holding up in the Al Tanf, Trump said no.
So, not only did they team up w/Ru mercs and regulars, the same umbrella group are the ones responsible for the majority of the attacks on US outposts and camps. And who will ever forget Trump handing over the Kurds' ancestral lands to Turkey after all the blood they shed defeating daesh.
(4) President Biden likely to reimpose strict sanctions on Iran and when those militias stick up there heads again punch their ticket for 72 virgins.
(5) Remain disappointed in the people in the area. They hold the key to peace yet prefer to live in fear and violence.
"Iraq, Syria, and Jordan are teetering on the edge of failing. All 3 had or have a version of Humpty Dumpty with all power super concentrated in the few. All 3 have control over their traditional capital and not much else, There is no sense of nationalism, rather a dividing religious line."
Sounds like the US and Israel.
Agree. When religion creeps into any civilian governing structure, rot results. There is Reason behind Vatican City as a state, separate and apart from Italy.
Specific to the US, must credit the Framers for NOT including any reference or iteration of God in the 2nd US Constitution and explicitly rejected a religious test for office. Nor has any Amendment added it. (Yet).
Specific to Israel, Bibi harnessed the religious minority to govern the majority of Israelis, including its traditional Arab-Israelis.
Anytime a minority secures power, bad chit follows due to the minority choosing exerting power over good governance. Had been optimistic Americans aged 18-25 would understand the danger of Trump et al instead appear to be looking across the sea to Palestine as their primary cause while simultaneously ignoring how similar Trump's America would be to Bibi's Israel. (And yes, placing the leader's name in front of the nation was intentional).
I was brought up in the Air Force. I love the military and soldiers. In general, soldiers live by a code of honor that I find lacking in civilian life. The services are meritocracies which demand people's best.
Mistakes can cause death. The military offers education and training to those who may not have
many opportunities. My mother was a teacher who volunteered to help soldiers, airmen in our case, earn their GEDs. It is a shame when dedicated soldiers are betrayed by their leaders and politicians.
I really appreciate your detailed explanations of what is, has, or may be going on.
My nightmare. All these forces slowly erode United Srates support for Israel to the point Israel finds itself totally isolated in the region and under assault from Islamic radicals who are different in name but with a common purpose. The destruction of Israel by force.
If , God forbid Israel ever finds itself in a losing position it will do what it has always promised to do. And I would remind everyone there is today only one nation in the region which would readily use nuclear weapons before seeing and its people annihilated.
Those operations in Vietnam were known as search and destroy missions when it reality, many were search and avoid missions. As you suggested, many of our major battles were great blunders. We did not need Hamburger Hill, if we had, we would have stayed and defended it. Ia Drang was another disaster that proved little except how to drop a battalion in the middle of a huge hornet's nest that could have destroyed us had we not had overwhelming artillery and air support. As you noted, we fought, withdrew, and gained nothing except concept validation for the Air Moblile effort. The folks on the ground were very well trained and had been a cohesive unit for several months, i.e., they were trained and they had a cadre that had worked together for a substantual period of time. In the end of that engagement, the second battalion was ambused and they took devestating losses. FOR WHAT? The units that followed were not highly trained and in a year, they were sent home. The leadership was changed about every 6 months. The VC and NVA were there for the duration.
We can't police the entire world. We can't even recruit good young men anymore. The Navy does not even require a HS education anymore and that is fine. If we are gonna defend the world, we need cannon fodder. Send the marines, that's what they area trained for, to die. Again, we can't defend the world. Israel needs to take over the role of caretaker of the world. They don't need us and they are cut throat. They actually believe they are god's chosen people. Hah...
We need to gradually evaluate our presence in many areas and withdraw where we are not needed which is most of those areas. We are not the only country in the world. Spain, France, the UK have militaries. Let them take on the role. We also have the Austrailians and the Koreans who are really good soldiers. Some of those units are far better than American units.
No more body bags. We need restraint in the middle east, Africa, and South America. Send the Brits or the French. They are using us and we don't need anymore bodybags at the airport. Let Israel handle it. They are very powerful. They got all emotional and over reacted to the tragedy on 10/7. They need to stand down and stop killing civilians. Some will defend the Israelis, but there is no defending the apartheid government.
NO MORE BODY BAGS.
I STILL RECALL THE STENCH OF BODIES.
Let's not go there.
I will defer to the great legal minds. OHHH, why did we have such nice housing where these folks were killed? Why must we have enlisted and officer's clubs, commissaries and air conditioned quarters in a "stealth war?"
The great legal minds will of course comment as they always do.
As usual Lucian hit out of the park. In Vietnam I served as an Infantryman with the 101st Airborne and spent some time at a firebase called "Ripcord". Google it and read the wikipedia version the go back to your search and go down and find the Ripcord Association version which is the participates version. A little more detail and ties it all together.
If I had to guess...what we are doing there is protecting the only nation in the whole damned Middle East is not Muslim Arab. You summed it up perfectly. Every other country is mad at some other country for reasons that are not solvable because they are based in historical religious persecution. Europe tore herself apart for 30 plus years over religion. It’s why the US doesn’t have a state supported church. Religion has been the cause of more world wide human suffering than any epidemic has been. Israel is Jewish. Israel is Semitic,
Hamas and all its cousins are anti-Semitic, but at rock bottom the Middle East is full of Semites who absolutely hate the Jews. It’s the anger of a son who lost favor with his father.
Israel needs to defend their country. We owe them nothing and they are drawing us into their personal conflict. Israel is a great country with nukes and the should defend themselves. There is a reason there are so few Israelis in the world and half chose to live in the US.
Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
Sem·ite
noun
plural noun: Semites
a member of any of the peoples who speak or spoke a Semitic language, including in particular the Jews and Arabs.
Oxford dictionary disagrees with your declaration that "Hamas and all its cousins are anti-Semitic ". Arabs, including Palestinians, are Semites.
I’m quite aware of the OED. It’s a solid but concrete dictionary. There is no nuance. The Middle East is full of nuance. Sunni, Shia, Alewite, Druze. All Muslim. All full of rage with each other. Very much like Christianity in the 17th Century. Please see 30 Years War in the OED.
I'm well aware of the 30 years war and the wars waged in the name of religions since time immemorial. I know Hamas, and many other Arabs, are anti-Jewish. They cannot be anti-Semitic. That is a term that has been confiscated by the Jewish community to be synonymous with anti-Jewish or anti-Israel. It is not. Hamas is a terrorist organization. I have no disagreement with that. I do have a disagreement with your use of the term anti-Semitic being used to describe Semites. There is no nuance. It is simply incorrect terminology.
Well...yes. Both groups are Semitic. However, the only Semites that Hamas want to remove from the world are Jews. Therefore, Hamas is anti-Semitic. I repeat: this is anger of sons who lost favor with their father.
They are anti-Jew, anti-Israel, anti-Zionist. They are not anti-Semitic.
Jews are Semites.
Hamas is Semitic
Hamas hates Jews.
Therefore: Hamas is anti Semitic.
Abraham had many sons. One was Isaac,son of Sarah, Abraham’s wife. One was Ishmael, son of Hagar, Abraham’s concubine. Please read appropriate story in Genesis.
Also, Muhammad wrote that his followers should treat the Jews, sons of Abraham, with respect.
I almost peed in my pants when I read the line "...and wait for the enemy to shoot at you." Thanks. I needed that.
Excellent column, Lucian. Thank you for the analysis. Question: what are the reasonable alternatives to the "target patrol" strategy when the identity and location of the enemy are unclear? If we are repeatedly finding ourselves using this strategy, wasteful in lives and resources, shouldn't we be looking at something else?
Why don't we just get the hell out of the middle east entirely. As you say our guys are targets - cannnon fodder. It's kind of a catch-22...they only attack because they don't want us there and we're only there because they attack. Let them have the whole damn desert! Israel can defend itself with our help. Why do we have to be there at all? I think it's crazy
They only want our money and our latest military equipment! We want their OIL but yes, get out! We will never understand them or want to accept or share their lives!
Don't forget the war in the Philippines 1899-1902. We always have such logical explanations for USA foreign meddling-our soldiers getting killed (until we didn't). There might be better ways of protecting Israel than stirring up all hornets in a 1,000 mile radius from our mideast desert archipelago. How about a single slap at Tehran in the form of a nuclear bomb fired from a satellite when wind direction just right. The fallout will create sickness among downwind ISIS fighters reducing their will to cause trouble while sending a message to Iranian trouble-makers. By the time the radiation reaches our friends in Israel It will be no stronger than the fallout reaching the spectators with sunglasses standing at gas stations in Nevada desert watching a 1950s bomb test. This dribbling, long drawn out killing of our lower middle class young men is simply not fair. Let's draft all Ivy league grads for our desert bases and watch solutions pop up like flowers after a spring rain.
Biden's backed himself right into a corner, by supporting, financing and sending Israel weapons for the last few months. We should have tremendous compassion for each and every unnecessary death due to war in the Middle East, and zero sympathy for Netenyahu and Biden.
Biden's chances for reelection grow weaker by the day and he brought it on his compromised AIPAC funded self. Tough luck.
But, the situation will rectify itself. Israel is becoming lonelier and lonelier.
Will U.S. ever learn their lesson and leave them alone? They need to take care of themselves! Right? So much money going there . . . $$$$$$$$$$$$$
Lucian its about Mohammed. For a thousand years before Manifest Destiny here. Before Squanto was a negotiator.
Vietnam: the French and the CIA should have opened a stock market rather than a "Dominos" War.
Good Film. The Quiet American.
Relevant,
JORDAN. Good film: BODY OF LIES.
Thanks Lucian,
Good aricle. Particulary for those who dont know.
"YOU FOLLOW"????
"It's not really that simple, or that stupid, but it’s close." Actually no offense but it sounds to me that's exactly what it is.