They say that consensus isn’t possible anymore? Well, Defendant Trump’s legal team, his political advisers, some right-wing members of his party, and the Washington punditocracy have come to agreement on one thing: he’s running for President to keep himself out of jail. The problem with that construction, however, is that Defendant Trump will have to
To avoid all of the possible clustermuck there is only one solution. Organize, donate to and vote for Democrats up and down the ballot. Not only consign TFG to the ashbin of history but punish a feckless GOP for sitting on the sidelines while he tried to hijack our Constitution for their benefit. All but a few Republicans have dirty hands and need to be held accountable. It is not a perfect solution because in some parts of this nation the MAGA agenda is preferred but it is the only way to put a stake into his heart for once and for all. Beat him at the polls , keep Biden in the Oval Office and Jack Smith finally putting this criminal away.
Right on, Robert. That bastard belongs in prison, and it seems to me that people may not be seeing what I see in Jack Smith, a really tough individual with a knowledge and respect for the justice system and the LAW. I look at the orange traitor and there's nothing but a lowlife who only gets anywhere by threatening and lying.
When the next indictments come down, the fat pig will probably not be the only one SC Smith holds responsible for 1/6.
We've been expecting the "higher up people" who planned the insurrection to finally pay. I'm putting my money on SC Jack Smith and the rule of law.
I spend a lot of my time recruiting new voters, and explain to them that the only way out of this mess is to vote out the Republican Party. At this point in time, the only way to "right" things is to vote party. Like you said, win at the polls, re-elect President Biden, and let Jack Smith do his job.
OK, but pay attention to the Democrat you're supporting. Some of them are almost as bad as Joe Manchin. If you give them money or canvass for them -- hold their goddamn feet to the fire.
You're right. For the moment, the republicans need to be beaten. Maybe then, Americans can finally vote for the right person and not the party. That will only happen with people in Congress who are interested in doing good for America, not what serves them personally.
I agree. He will definitely be the most polarizing candidate the GOP can run and millioms will be motivated to elect anyone but Trump. Along with the shift in demographics which has produced an additional 53 million voters since 2016 and seen approximately 16 million fewer older voters there will be a much larger cohort who are in favor of choice, equity for the LBGQ community, for a more proactive stance on climate change, and, yes, for equality not exclusion of minority voters. If the Ds can organize a half way effective voter registration and get out the vote program he will lose by one hell of a lot more than seven million. Double figures easily.
The problem is that being Trump, he might not follow through on any plea agreement. If the man's mouth is open he's lying. I would guess the same goes for his signature.
You are a wise man, Lucian -- but this is a BAD idea IMHO. We must return to regular order where criminals are tried and if convicted appropriately punished.
This bothers me a *lot* for 3 reasons: 1. A plea bargain is one thing; they're more common than trials. But in the interest of justice, the outcome really must be commensurate with the crime. A special, separate deal for this mobster is just light years below the scale of the crimes (and I believe he's yet to be charged with other, even more serious crimes, such as coordinating with foreign governments). It's not right to give him an option that could be given to no other defendant in peril; it's unjust on its face. It would be the equivalent of pleading out a mob boss with: "Go and don't be a mob boss any more." 2. It's political on its face. Many American voters would like him to run again. Without a trial with detailed exposure of his crimes, they, and he, will assuredly cry out that this is just the corrupt Biden administration making a corrupt deal. With charges referred by a grand jury, the DoJ can at least say that everyday American citizens found evidence for putting him away. This alternative is just a backroom deal, and so certain to arouse a furore that I'm surprised it's taken seriously. (That said, prison isn't the only thing that happens to convicts; there are other options.) 3. Manifestly, there is no mechanism to enforce this mythomaniacal lunatic's adherence to any agreement, however explicit, however strict, however public it may be. The guy who instigated January 6 is going to abide by a plea deal. He'll go in telling his cronies what suckers the DoJ are. I am constantly astounded and demoralized by the fact that neither journalists nor the public recognize a fundamental element of this man's personality: He's a high-stakes gambler by temperament. All he really wants is to test the courts, his nominal political party, the public to see what he can get away with, what contracts he can break, who he can betray and stiff and exploit. He doesn't live to accrue wealth like a good capitalist, but to work "deals". The real key he gave us to his character was his remark about shooting someone in the middle of Fifth Avenue. That's his ideal. Not even to be invulnerable, but to consistently and continually act like a cross between Mussolini and a cheap hood and never lose love. And this plea deal would hand him his crowning glory: a chance to screw the whole foundation of justice in the US.
There was a blip on my screen yesterday that was delightful to see. When Trump arrived at Mar a Crapsville after these new charges, he was completely and totally freaked out and had to be talked down. It. Is. Getting. To. Him. And he is looking a little more haggard with each passing day with signs in his eyes of sleep deprivation and there are coming attractions. Since he's never done anything but conduct himself this way, I do not think he has a clue how to handle this any other way. Oh, and another little juicy tidbit. Eric Swalwell called McCarthy a weak weak man and a pussy. He made him so mad he said, if you ever call me that again, I will beat your ass. Swalwell looks him straight in the eye and says You. Are. A. Pussy. In all this awfulness, it's nice to have a chuckle every now and then. I'd love to see if there's a fight soon.
As disgusting and preposterous as your proposed scenario would be, I don't think that you can get more than 2 lawyers in the world to agree on anything, let alone all the lawyers, judges and in betweens to agree on dropping charges for Donald Trump in exchange for him to never run for office again.
I don't think Jack Smith would ever agree to it. He's worked too damn hard for this. He's earned the right to prosecute Donald Trump.
Don't breathe this to him, because he's insane enough to try it. He believes that he can actually get away with such a scheme-hell, he's tried a coup before, almost got away with it (except that we have better good guys on our side) and heaven knows there are enough Americans who would probably rise up in protest against such shenanigans.
I want to see him in prison. I don't care what he thinks, believes or says. He's a criminal, he should be in prison right now and if we give him a fucking inch some other stupid bastard is going to take that yard that comes along down the road and then where will we be?
No. We do not bargain with terrorists or Donald Trump. He goes to court, he does the time, and we do not allow him to even once have the saving grace of a benefit of a doubt.
We're supposed to be an example to the rest of the world. Doing as you suggest would not help at all-it would make us into a banana republic complete with bananas to give everyone who ever walks into a court room and says, "I'm innocent, you can't hold me accountable and I'm done."
The Constitution might not address the very thought of Donald Trump running for office, being convicted of crimes and then pardoning himself, but why don't we let the American people make up their minds if he's even going to be able to get on the ballot?
You're leaving out a lot of people who are pissed off and tired to death of Donald Trump and I think you'd be surprised that most of the GOP is part of it, but they don't say so because they're cowards and they wouldn't know a spine if they were given one for free.
We're better than caving to cowardly coup plotters. Let the American people decide-I have a hope that we will come through after all.
Because not all of us are maga cowards. Some of us actually are patriots.
IF Trump is convicted of sedition or conspiracy to commit sedition, he would be banned from ever running for any elected office again under the 14th amendment.....
But is sedition a charge that is already in the works? Because you have to prove he had intent and the knowledge that others were going to do his bidding.
I think Jack Smith would rather convict him on conspiracy charges or obstruction charges which are easier to prove intent with. Sedition is a very heavy lift, as shown by the Jan 6th prosecutions of those who actually did it. Only a few were actually charged and convicted of that charge because the evidence was extremely strong for it. Stewart Rhodes and 4 (?) others were convicted out of over 1,000 people prosecuted.
All true, but we do not yet know what is in the Jan. 6 indictment. The charges listed in the charging letter to Trump do not have to include every charge being considered. I myself am hoping Mr. Smith lays the gavel on every Tim, Dick and Harry who took part in the planning and attempted execution of this nefarious plan..... At last count, IIRC, Meadows' phone had messages to and from 54 members of Congress, among others.....
Of all the charges Smith could bring on the Jan 6th, it would have to be the most serious because the evidence (such as we have) is overwhelmingly proof of it, plus the statements of various people charged who blamed/cited Trump as being their reason for coming to DC in the first place.
We can hope that Jack Smith will consider it, but we have to remember the feds never bring a case they can lose. They play to win and they almost always do.
Donald Trump is freaked out by this fact as well he should be.
The one thing I always worried about when he had the presidential seat was his ability to push that red button on his phone. He has caused such chaos amongst us that he wanted more outside of the US. We endured too many tumultuous years with this dicktator. High time for him to come face-to-face with Jack Smith.
Absolutely no deal. The only way for the country to deTrumpize is to overwhelmingly defeat him in the 2024 election no matter what happens in the courts.
Will Jack Smith take him to a place where he’s has to contemplate a hobbsons choice and possibly leave the country or nothing?.
He might have bunked with Putin (who apparently out-whore-housed Trump’s tacky golden digs at trump tower) (apologies to whorehouses everywhere) at his estate/prison complex in Crimea. But now that’s too risky.
He’s cornered. Even Erdogan isn’t reliable, let alone Netanyahu for refuge.
Dangerous times for someone who deserves to face justice in court.
1.) He is solely and entirely consumed with narcissistic malevolence. There is no way he’d “Let it Go”. He would not accept a diminished role, he would instead take more desperate and fanatical vengeance on the Republic for anything short of a daily military parade in his honor.
2.) Even after 2016, even after he WON, he was recklessly pushing grievance conspiracies about stolen votes in California. It’s clear he planned to deploy the election fraud claims when he expected to lose to HRC. Even in victory, he couldn’t let go of a scheme. That’s telling; it doesn’t have to be useful or make sense. He enjoys the fight, not the job. The more he loses, the more he will keep running and taking more and more desperate measures to burn it all down.
Disagree on a couple of things here. First, I do not for a minute believe that Trump is not stupid. He is profoundly, intentionally, proudly and flagrantly stupid in every possible way; the man has elevated stupidity to something nearly sacred, and he has surrounded himself with people whose livelihoods depend on their willingness and ability to protect and preserve his stupidity. He's got a feral cunning, sure, but so do many fish; we shouldn't read more into that than experience tells us is there -- and that's not much. Second, why would anybody think that it might even be possible for Trump to comply with any agreement? He doesn't even follow stuff that's mandatory (paying taxes, refraining from rape, you know, the basics); what might lead us to conclude that he'd abide by the terms of an actual agreement? Can't take the chance on that crooked bastard going straight at this point. We need to drop the courthouse on him.
I agree Bill, he is stupid. Look at the way he keeps talking, even after being charged. He gives SC Jack Smith and Bragg, Willis, and anyone else more information than they already have. If that is not a sign of stupidity, then I don't know what is.
Come on, Lucian. You are prescribing Nixon 2.0. Trump must be tried so that there is a permanent record. I don't want any slippery, dancing around whether or not he did something wrong. I realize that most of the MAGA crowd wouldn't respect a conviction in a fair trial. But for history, we need this to go to trial. Besides, I want Trump to get the nomination. He has never won the popular vote. And Biden is not likely to let the "Blue Wall" fall down. Also the age issue that comes with Biden is nullified by Trump.
Republicans think they can just erase the "permanent record", its down the Memory Hole for them, so I don't think it would make any difference if he's convicted or just steps down from running.
You wrote "....can he rule from behind bars?". Note the verb "rule" vs. "govern" which is what we actually hire (elect) our president, vice-president and Congress-people to do. Too many of them, almost exclusively Republican, have chosen "rule" over "govern" as is evidenced by Republicans in both Houses of Congress.
Fascinating update, Lucian. Thing is, even if such a “global” solution barred Trump from running in exchange for all the charges being dropped, he’d certainly violate that deal, too, run again, and challenge it in court. Only prison under the current and impending charges will diminish, if not eliminate the threat he poses.
To avoid all of the possible clustermuck there is only one solution. Organize, donate to and vote for Democrats up and down the ballot. Not only consign TFG to the ashbin of history but punish a feckless GOP for sitting on the sidelines while he tried to hijack our Constitution for their benefit. All but a few Republicans have dirty hands and need to be held accountable. It is not a perfect solution because in some parts of this nation the MAGA agenda is preferred but it is the only way to put a stake into his heart for once and for all. Beat him at the polls , keep Biden in the Oval Office and Jack Smith finally putting this criminal away.
Right on, Robert. That bastard belongs in prison, and it seems to me that people may not be seeing what I see in Jack Smith, a really tough individual with a knowledge and respect for the justice system and the LAW. I look at the orange traitor and there's nothing but a lowlife who only gets anywhere by threatening and lying.
When the next indictments come down, the fat pig will probably not be the only one SC Smith holds responsible for 1/6.
We've been expecting the "higher up people" who planned the insurrection to finally pay. I'm putting my money on SC Jack Smith and the rule of law.
I spend a lot of my time recruiting new voters, and explain to them that the only way out of this mess is to vote out the Republican Party. At this point in time, the only way to "right" things is to vote party. Like you said, win at the polls, re-elect President Biden, and let Jack Smith do his job.
OK, but pay attention to the Democrat you're supporting. Some of them are almost as bad as Joe Manchin. If you give them money or canvass for them -- hold their goddamn feet to the fire.
Who are you thinking of? Of course we should pay attention before and after we elect anyone.
In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is King. Perfect is the enemy of the possible and, yes, everything as in everything in life is relative.
You're right. For the moment, the republicans need to be beaten. Maybe then, Americans can finally vote for the right person and not the party. That will only happen with people in Congress who are interested in doing good for America, not what serves them personally.
The same goes for the Supreme Court.
Let him keep on running! He’s a walking, talking ad to bring even more Dems and I’s to vote for our very good President, Joe Biden.
I agree. He will definitely be the most polarizing candidate the GOP can run and millioms will be motivated to elect anyone but Trump. Along with the shift in demographics which has produced an additional 53 million voters since 2016 and seen approximately 16 million fewer older voters there will be a much larger cohort who are in favor of choice, equity for the LBGQ community, for a more proactive stance on climate change, and, yes, for equality not exclusion of minority voters. If the Ds can organize a half way effective voter registration and get out the vote program he will lose by one hell of a lot more than seven million. Double figures easily.
The problem is that being Trump, he might not follow through on any plea agreement. If the man's mouth is open he's lying. I would guess the same goes for his signature.
Was thinking similarly--what would stop him from reneging on the plea deal. Abbott has defied, DOJ, Alabama has defied the SC, why wouldn't he??
It would be legally binding. He could not back out of it.
Whenever has any agreement been legally binding with Trump? He just views contracts as a start of negotiations where he makes a better deal.
It's a 1000 to one shot so we'll never know.
I understand, but what do they do when/if he does? If it came to it, would someone actually lock this guy up?
You are a wise man, Lucian -- but this is a BAD idea IMHO. We must return to regular order where criminals are tried and if convicted appropriately punished.
Damn straight!
This bothers me a *lot* for 3 reasons: 1. A plea bargain is one thing; they're more common than trials. But in the interest of justice, the outcome really must be commensurate with the crime. A special, separate deal for this mobster is just light years below the scale of the crimes (and I believe he's yet to be charged with other, even more serious crimes, such as coordinating with foreign governments). It's not right to give him an option that could be given to no other defendant in peril; it's unjust on its face. It would be the equivalent of pleading out a mob boss with: "Go and don't be a mob boss any more." 2. It's political on its face. Many American voters would like him to run again. Without a trial with detailed exposure of his crimes, they, and he, will assuredly cry out that this is just the corrupt Biden administration making a corrupt deal. With charges referred by a grand jury, the DoJ can at least say that everyday American citizens found evidence for putting him away. This alternative is just a backroom deal, and so certain to arouse a furore that I'm surprised it's taken seriously. (That said, prison isn't the only thing that happens to convicts; there are other options.) 3. Manifestly, there is no mechanism to enforce this mythomaniacal lunatic's adherence to any agreement, however explicit, however strict, however public it may be. The guy who instigated January 6 is going to abide by a plea deal. He'll go in telling his cronies what suckers the DoJ are. I am constantly astounded and demoralized by the fact that neither journalists nor the public recognize a fundamental element of this man's personality: He's a high-stakes gambler by temperament. All he really wants is to test the courts, his nominal political party, the public to see what he can get away with, what contracts he can break, who he can betray and stiff and exploit. He doesn't live to accrue wealth like a good capitalist, but to work "deals". The real key he gave us to his character was his remark about shooting someone in the middle of Fifth Avenue. That's his ideal. Not even to be invulnerable, but to consistently and continually act like a cross between Mussolini and a cheap hood and never lose love. And this plea deal would hand him his crowning glory: a chance to screw the whole foundation of justice in the US.
Astute. You hit the nail on the head.
There was a blip on my screen yesterday that was delightful to see. When Trump arrived at Mar a Crapsville after these new charges, he was completely and totally freaked out and had to be talked down. It. Is. Getting. To. Him. And he is looking a little more haggard with each passing day with signs in his eyes of sleep deprivation and there are coming attractions. Since he's never done anything but conduct himself this way, I do not think he has a clue how to handle this any other way. Oh, and another little juicy tidbit. Eric Swalwell called McCarthy a weak weak man and a pussy. He made him so mad he said, if you ever call me that again, I will beat your ass. Swalwell looks him straight in the eye and says You. Are. A. Pussy. In all this awfulness, it's nice to have a chuckle every now and then. I'd love to see if there's a fight soon.
It makes a nice change from watching the two MAGA witches hurl invectives at each other. What times we live in. BTW - I like Swalwell. Good job, sir.
I like Swalwell too. He doesn't hold his tongue but he's not vulgar either.
McCarthy is a pussy whipped pussy at the hands of MTG!
His little tool; her little tool. May they go into the dark place soon forever and we never hear from them again.
It will be no contest
As Swalwell looked down on the top of McCarthy's noggin when he said it. I don't know why I'm enjoying this so much. Or do I.
I like your confidence.
May you be correct.
As disgusting and preposterous as your proposed scenario would be, I don't think that you can get more than 2 lawyers in the world to agree on anything, let alone all the lawyers, judges and in betweens to agree on dropping charges for Donald Trump in exchange for him to never run for office again.
I don't think Jack Smith would ever agree to it. He's worked too damn hard for this. He's earned the right to prosecute Donald Trump.
Don't breathe this to him, because he's insane enough to try it. He believes that he can actually get away with such a scheme-hell, he's tried a coup before, almost got away with it (except that we have better good guys on our side) and heaven knows there are enough Americans who would probably rise up in protest against such shenanigans.
I want to see him in prison. I don't care what he thinks, believes or says. He's a criminal, he should be in prison right now and if we give him a fucking inch some other stupid bastard is going to take that yard that comes along down the road and then where will we be?
No. We do not bargain with terrorists or Donald Trump. He goes to court, he does the time, and we do not allow him to even once have the saving grace of a benefit of a doubt.
We're supposed to be an example to the rest of the world. Doing as you suggest would not help at all-it would make us into a banana republic complete with bananas to give everyone who ever walks into a court room and says, "I'm innocent, you can't hold me accountable and I'm done."
The Constitution might not address the very thought of Donald Trump running for office, being convicted of crimes and then pardoning himself, but why don't we let the American people make up their minds if he's even going to be able to get on the ballot?
You're leaving out a lot of people who are pissed off and tired to death of Donald Trump and I think you'd be surprised that most of the GOP is part of it, but they don't say so because they're cowards and they wouldn't know a spine if they were given one for free.
We're better than caving to cowardly coup plotters. Let the American people decide-I have a hope that we will come through after all.
Because not all of us are maga cowards. Some of us actually are patriots.
"No. We do not bargain with terrorists or Donald Trump."
Amen!
IF Trump is convicted of sedition or conspiracy to commit sedition, he would be banned from ever running for any elected office again under the 14th amendment.....
But is sedition a charge that is already in the works? Because you have to prove he had intent and the knowledge that others were going to do his bidding.
I think Jack Smith would rather convict him on conspiracy charges or obstruction charges which are easier to prove intent with. Sedition is a very heavy lift, as shown by the Jan 6th prosecutions of those who actually did it. Only a few were actually charged and convicted of that charge because the evidence was extremely strong for it. Stewart Rhodes and 4 (?) others were convicted out of over 1,000 people prosecuted.
All true, but we do not yet know what is in the Jan. 6 indictment. The charges listed in the charging letter to Trump do not have to include every charge being considered. I myself am hoping Mr. Smith lays the gavel on every Tim, Dick and Harry who took part in the planning and attempted execution of this nefarious plan..... At last count, IIRC, Meadows' phone had messages to and from 54 members of Congress, among others.....
Of all the charges Smith could bring on the Jan 6th, it would have to be the most serious because the evidence (such as we have) is overwhelmingly proof of it, plus the statements of various people charged who blamed/cited Trump as being their reason for coming to DC in the first place.
We can hope that Jack Smith will consider it, but we have to remember the feds never bring a case they can lose. They play to win and they almost always do.
Donald Trump is freaked out by this fact as well he should be.
The one thing I always worried about when he had the presidential seat was his ability to push that red button on his phone. He has caused such chaos amongst us that he wanted more outside of the US. We endured too many tumultuous years with this dicktator. High time for him to come face-to-face with Jack Smith.
Absolutely no deal. The only way for the country to deTrumpize is to overwhelmingly defeat him in the 2024 election no matter what happens in the courts.
Will Jack Smith take him to a place where he’s has to contemplate a hobbsons choice and possibly leave the country or nothing?.
He might have bunked with Putin (who apparently out-whore-housed Trump’s tacky golden digs at trump tower) (apologies to whorehouses everywhere) at his estate/prison complex in Crimea. But now that’s too risky.
He’s cornered. Even Erdogan isn’t reliable, let alone Netanyahu for refuge.
Dangerous times for someone who deserves to face justice in court.
One place: Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, where there's a prison where some certain 9/11 detainees were kept on never filed or prosecuted charges.
Hey, he could rename it Mar-a-Lago 2 and run it as a hotel!
TWO THOUGHTS;
1.) He is solely and entirely consumed with narcissistic malevolence. There is no way he’d “Let it Go”. He would not accept a diminished role, he would instead take more desperate and fanatical vengeance on the Republic for anything short of a daily military parade in his honor.
2.) Even after 2016, even after he WON, he was recklessly pushing grievance conspiracies about stolen votes in California. It’s clear he planned to deploy the election fraud claims when he expected to lose to HRC. Even in victory, he couldn’t let go of a scheme. That’s telling; it doesn’t have to be useful or make sense. He enjoys the fight, not the job. The more he loses, the more he will keep running and taking more and more desperate measures to burn it all down.
Disagree on a couple of things here. First, I do not for a minute believe that Trump is not stupid. He is profoundly, intentionally, proudly and flagrantly stupid in every possible way; the man has elevated stupidity to something nearly sacred, and he has surrounded himself with people whose livelihoods depend on their willingness and ability to protect and preserve his stupidity. He's got a feral cunning, sure, but so do many fish; we shouldn't read more into that than experience tells us is there -- and that's not much. Second, why would anybody think that it might even be possible for Trump to comply with any agreement? He doesn't even follow stuff that's mandatory (paying taxes, refraining from rape, you know, the basics); what might lead us to conclude that he'd abide by the terms of an actual agreement? Can't take the chance on that crooked bastard going straight at this point. We need to drop the courthouse on him.
I agree Bill, he is stupid. Look at the way he keeps talking, even after being charged. He gives SC Jack Smith and Bragg, Willis, and anyone else more information than they already have. If that is not a sign of stupidity, then I don't know what is.
Come on, Lucian. You are prescribing Nixon 2.0. Trump must be tried so that there is a permanent record. I don't want any slippery, dancing around whether or not he did something wrong. I realize that most of the MAGA crowd wouldn't respect a conviction in a fair trial. But for history, we need this to go to trial. Besides, I want Trump to get the nomination. He has never won the popular vote. And Biden is not likely to let the "Blue Wall" fall down. Also the age issue that comes with Biden is nullified by Trump.
Republicans think they can just erase the "permanent record", its down the Memory Hole for them, so I don't think it would make any difference if he's convicted or just steps down from running.
The best answer is wake island and exile.
He would need to be guarded by DOJ staff. We can’t trust Air Force security to keep him under wraps. Too many crazies in the AF.
Home of the Christian Nationalists.
You wrote "....can he rule from behind bars?". Note the verb "rule" vs. "govern" which is what we actually hire (elect) our president, vice-president and Congress-people to do. Too many of them, almost exclusively Republican, have chosen "rule" over "govern" as is evidenced by Republicans in both Houses of Congress.
Remember, one of the reasons he was initially selected to run was his disdain for governance which turned traitors like Bannon loose.
Fascinating update, Lucian. Thing is, even if such a “global” solution barred Trump from running in exchange for all the charges being dropped, he’d certainly violate that deal, too, run again, and challenge it in court. Only prison under the current and impending charges will diminish, if not eliminate the threat he poses.
It would be legally binding.
This is my lower self talking here: I just wish tRump would die. Period.
You are not the only one.
I think it's the only way we will ever be rid of that shitstain