MOSSAD is not the IDF any more than the CIA is the US Mil.
My observations (FWIW)
Not comfortable with the reported number of 3000 pagers. Not at all comfortable with the device having been outfitted with both an e-detonator and an explosive. Based that on what's publicly available in videos of achieving a detonation yet no explosion follows. The vids with sound are not consistent with an explosion. Again, my sample size of vids and pic are small but not one shows secondary damage or a quick flame thru the smoke which would happen if an explosive was detonated.
E-detonators on their own can cause damage and send a message of gotcha just as blasting cap can. The few pics of the pagers show them pretty much intact minus a chunk. Other reports include comm radios inc. walkie-talkies. Now they are large enough to include an explosive capable of killing within the blast zone. As far as other reports of electronics going poof or kaboom, haven't seen any pic of vids yet.
If the MOSSAD has control over an importer and/or exporter of electronics I sure wouldn't be watching the teevee in Beirut or googling explosives that fit into a pager on a PC-laptop or notebook. And kids toys that have electronic components as so many do now would be placed in the outside trash. I mention toys cuz if the pagers were for Hez-fighters/members how did children get a hold of one or more?
Again, agree this is way over any line in the civilized world. It's terrorism because the element of fear is front and center. It's terrorism because as you correctly point out it's indiscriminate by design. And nations react to terrorism (am not a fan of that word for many reasons) emphasis react. One reaction will be internal hunting down any and all persons they deem potential collaborators. They will be tortured just as the US tortured potential AQ folk, only worse because their families will be dragged in as well. Hezbollah likely to add Israeli civ targets to their target set and work w/others to infiltrate Israel to take their pound of flesh and achieve marty-dumb.
Just when Bibi needs to focus on a ceasefire he reverts back to his MO of let's kill a bunch of Arabs and light a torch under tens of millions of others. Closing w/the US made a tragic error by adding a militarized element to the CIA that first started by sheep-dipping members of the US Mil into CIA-led missions and fully under their authority. You touched upon one. The blurring of lines never ends well. Here is to Israel and the IDF not making that same mistake.
Your take on the specifics of the devices makes me wonder what the point of this killing stunt was since they weren't, and never could be, 100% lethal. It seems like something some psychopathic child dreamt up, or something in a video game.
And to the old spook: John Brennan called it "remarkable", taking no other position.
Agree. Does come off as if a psychopath and sociopath had a game of who can come up with the wackiest idea on how to terrorize a population. Is counter to what intelligence services are chartered to do, nudge others into thinking and acting in a manner that benefits one's nation. Agree with Lucian this took years and years however, see this misuse/abuse of assets and resources to be counter-productive in the larger scheme of things. For all the time and money spent getting there, it's a very short-term result while triggering the law of unintended consequences.
It's one thing to jam or muck w/electronics in a society or nation, it; 's quite another to turn them into weapons that terrorize, injure, maim, or kill. Not surprised Brennan got a chubby from it. Heard/saw many similar takes from here at home and abroad. Not a one who has a North Star though. They all condemned it as madness. And that includes my beloved late wife's family of Sephardic Jews and my own seeds.
My initial thought was also psychological warfare...as in, we can do this anytime, anywhere with anything. Listening to NPR this morning there was a funeral service for people killed with the pagers that was temporarily halted because of the explosion of a walkie-talkie.
I shiver at the thought of something like that happening in the United States.
Still hearing far too many former CIA and mil officers applauding the tactic of weaponizing devices that (a) are not exclusive to Hezbollah fighters and leadership (b) devices that are routinely carried while amongst the civ population, in public places, and their family homes.
Must add the following due to enuff time passing for those who know better to revise their comments that ran the gamut from brilliant to remarkable etc etc. Alas, the best they could do is wonder if there is any downside or perhaps consequences.
Those going all gaga over the op including branding it novel are dead wrong. Espionage and sabotage have been around before history recorded the first war. So too is mucking with today's term of supply chain. Supply chain is a rather new term for how products go from an idea to a finished product, whether it is food, water, motor vehicles, or tech. What is novel in the op is not to be lauded, mass assassination. Nation states have long had the capability and capacity to pull off mass assassinations yet wisely declined for the very reason you invoked a moral compass. Bibi and his rw government doesn't have one and niithah do those who are satisfied w/espionage and sabotage because inside they thirst for blood. Not a one waving pom-poms mentioned how this op will burn innocent suppliers, assemblers, brokers, manufacturers, importer/exporters who had nothing to do with this atrocity. Then again have yet to hear of or meet anyone in that intel world who shows any concern for burning innocents. Indeed, they see doing so a way of covering their own tracks.
To each and every one who still insists those words apply they affirm the many reasons the US and West remain clueless regarding non-Western cultures and remain enamored with their brutal roots.
Those devices never ever shoulda been made w/the potential of lethality or maiming. It was enuff to permanently disabled them by shorting out their circuitry aka melting the circuit board or boards. Yes, woulda produced enuff heat to result in different degrees of burns but not death or lasting wounds/injuries.
The objective to reach out and touch comes with losing comms, losing faith in leadership, the setting in over paranoia (what's next syndrome), and humiliation. Humiliation is not an incentive to seek revenge. Humiliation paralyzes the mind, body, and spirit. Causes people to look within, rather than outward. Indeed blocks the outside from entering. Humiliation in all sorts of human interaction including war/combat resets the brain. Even the worst or the worst, hate can lessen and be replaced by degrees of respect.
Any person who has been in a physical altercation who has superior skills knows the result they seek is surrender w/o hurting/injuring the person. The surrender need not be verbal or physical, it need only occur in the eyes. The eyes are the quickest path to the brain and back again. And yes they are also a window to the soul.
So, the op was the full definition of too clever by half including overreach. And the overreach in this matter is overkill. Any goal of changing the enemy's behavior went up in smoke, flames, screams, and carnage. Getting into the head of the enemy is critical. However, it must linger longer to have the desired effect of weakening their resolve to fight today, tomorrow, the next day, and the next.
Non-lethal means accomplish that. Lethal action restores resolve quicker than chit because it requires no thought, simply a reaction.
Have similar thoughts, Rich
State-sponsored terrorism is NOT a mil op.
MOSSAD is not the IDF any more than the CIA is the US Mil.
My observations (FWIW)
Not comfortable with the reported number of 3000 pagers. Not at all comfortable with the device having been outfitted with both an e-detonator and an explosive. Based that on what's publicly available in videos of achieving a detonation yet no explosion follows. The vids with sound are not consistent with an explosion. Again, my sample size of vids and pic are small but not one shows secondary damage or a quick flame thru the smoke which would happen if an explosive was detonated.
E-detonators on their own can cause damage and send a message of gotcha just as blasting cap can. The few pics of the pagers show them pretty much intact minus a chunk. Other reports include comm radios inc. walkie-talkies. Now they are large enough to include an explosive capable of killing within the blast zone. As far as other reports of electronics going poof or kaboom, haven't seen any pic of vids yet.
If the MOSSAD has control over an importer and/or exporter of electronics I sure wouldn't be watching the teevee in Beirut or googling explosives that fit into a pager on a PC-laptop or notebook. And kids toys that have electronic components as so many do now would be placed in the outside trash. I mention toys cuz if the pagers were for Hez-fighters/members how did children get a hold of one or more?
Again, agree this is way over any line in the civilized world. It's terrorism because the element of fear is front and center. It's terrorism because as you correctly point out it's indiscriminate by design. And nations react to terrorism (am not a fan of that word for many reasons) emphasis react. One reaction will be internal hunting down any and all persons they deem potential collaborators. They will be tortured just as the US tortured potential AQ folk, only worse because their families will be dragged in as well. Hezbollah likely to add Israeli civ targets to their target set and work w/others to infiltrate Israel to take their pound of flesh and achieve marty-dumb.
Just when Bibi needs to focus on a ceasefire he reverts back to his MO of let's kill a bunch of Arabs and light a torch under tens of millions of others. Closing w/the US made a tragic error by adding a militarized element to the CIA that first started by sheep-dipping members of the US Mil into CIA-led missions and fully under their authority. You touched upon one. The blurring of lines never ends well. Here is to Israel and the IDF not making that same mistake.
Like your comment!
Your take on the specifics of the devices makes me wonder what the point of this killing stunt was since they weren't, and never could be, 100% lethal. It seems like something some psychopathic child dreamt up, or something in a video game.
And to the old spook: John Brennan called it "remarkable", taking no other position.
Agree. Does come off as if a psychopath and sociopath had a game of who can come up with the wackiest idea on how to terrorize a population. Is counter to what intelligence services are chartered to do, nudge others into thinking and acting in a manner that benefits one's nation. Agree with Lucian this took years and years however, see this misuse/abuse of assets and resources to be counter-productive in the larger scheme of things. For all the time and money spent getting there, it's a very short-term result while triggering the law of unintended consequences.
It's one thing to jam or muck w/electronics in a society or nation, it; 's quite another to turn them into weapons that terrorize, injure, maim, or kill. Not surprised Brennan got a chubby from it. Heard/saw many similar takes from here at home and abroad. Not a one who has a North Star though. They all condemned it as madness. And that includes my beloved late wife's family of Sephardic Jews and my own seeds.
My initial thought was also psychological warfare...as in, we can do this anytime, anywhere with anything. Listening to NPR this morning there was a funeral service for people killed with the pagers that was temporarily halted because of the explosion of a walkie-talkie.
I shiver at the thought of something like that happening in the United States.
Agree.
Still hearing far too many former CIA and mil officers applauding the tactic of weaponizing devices that (a) are not exclusive to Hezbollah fighters and leadership (b) devices that are routinely carried while amongst the civ population, in public places, and their family homes.
Bibi has no shame and no honor.
Must add the following due to enuff time passing for those who know better to revise their comments that ran the gamut from brilliant to remarkable etc etc. Alas, the best they could do is wonder if there is any downside or perhaps consequences.
Those going all gaga over the op including branding it novel are dead wrong. Espionage and sabotage have been around before history recorded the first war. So too is mucking with today's term of supply chain. Supply chain is a rather new term for how products go from an idea to a finished product, whether it is food, water, motor vehicles, or tech. What is novel in the op is not to be lauded, mass assassination. Nation states have long had the capability and capacity to pull off mass assassinations yet wisely declined for the very reason you invoked a moral compass. Bibi and his rw government doesn't have one and niithah do those who are satisfied w/espionage and sabotage because inside they thirst for blood. Not a one waving pom-poms mentioned how this op will burn innocent suppliers, assemblers, brokers, manufacturers, importer/exporters who had nothing to do with this atrocity. Then again have yet to hear of or meet anyone in that intel world who shows any concern for burning innocents. Indeed, they see doing so a way of covering their own tracks.
To each and every one who still insists those words apply they affirm the many reasons the US and West remain clueless regarding non-Western cultures and remain enamored with their brutal roots.
Those devices never ever shoulda been made w/the potential of lethality or maiming. It was enuff to permanently disabled them by shorting out their circuitry aka melting the circuit board or boards. Yes, woulda produced enuff heat to result in different degrees of burns but not death or lasting wounds/injuries.
The objective to reach out and touch comes with losing comms, losing faith in leadership, the setting in over paranoia (what's next syndrome), and humiliation. Humiliation is not an incentive to seek revenge. Humiliation paralyzes the mind, body, and spirit. Causes people to look within, rather than outward. Indeed blocks the outside from entering. Humiliation in all sorts of human interaction including war/combat resets the brain. Even the worst or the worst, hate can lessen and be replaced by degrees of respect.
Any person who has been in a physical altercation who has superior skills knows the result they seek is surrender w/o hurting/injuring the person. The surrender need not be verbal or physical, it need only occur in the eyes. The eyes are the quickest path to the brain and back again. And yes they are also a window to the soul.
So, the op was the full definition of too clever by half including overreach. And the overreach in this matter is overkill. Any goal of changing the enemy's behavior went up in smoke, flames, screams, and carnage. Getting into the head of the enemy is critical. However, it must linger longer to have the desired effect of weakening their resolve to fight today, tomorrow, the next day, and the next.
Non-lethal means accomplish that. Lethal action restores resolve quicker than chit because it requires no thought, simply a reaction.