Not just the red states. I live in a red county of a blue state, the same county where the execrable Chris Christie got his political start. I was reading a book excerpt last night about those days, and the statistic was that, with one exception during Watergate, no Democrat had won here since 1910.
I agree that flipping red states is a true lost cause. But how many purple states would it take to tip into Pro-Democracy control? (We also might need to get rid of the standard party names, which are huge impediments to changing votes.)
TimPrentiss, all I can say is "be careful what you wish for." As far as I can tell, "democracy" -- the concept, not the buzzword -- is mainly popular with those of us who are more or less relativists. We can see multiple sides to any story. We can even see the good points of candidates we oppose and ideas we don't agree with. For absolutists this is not the case, and the current GOP is riddled with absolutists. Fundamentalist religions are riddled with absolutists. Absolutists say "my way or the highway" (if not the firing squad) and mean it. Absolutists don't leave anything to chance, and with free and fair elections there is always a significant chance that they're going to lose. IOW, "upholding democracy" is a meaningless litmus test because relativists and absolutists mean different things by "democracy."
Should a well armed mob torch Washington, and make Trump president they will have about 24 hours of fun and then the banks will cut them off, the hedge fund managers will walk away and the great corporations will go silent. The military will probably give them a few days to hoop it up and then go home. TV will be exciting and the internet will glow white hot. But in the end, Trump will be the leader of about five square miles and little else. The idea that Mitch McConnell or Kevin McCarthy and others will welcome Trumps triumph return is absurd. He is a useful idiot, little else. America loves drama and all the popular books are post apocalyptic. Such excitement! But finally the truth will prevail. In the 1960's Democrats in the south raised hell and made threats but no one wanted a Civil War. Nasty legislation can be shot down by sober judges or by Federal Legislation. Lyndon Johnson ignored the hysterics and passed the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts and the south swallowed it. Southern Business interests finance Republicans, if you scare the money people they will stop funding the Republicans and the Democrats will have the future. Remember, in 1934 Republicans said a lot of what they say today, branding Roosevelt a Socialists and worse, and the Democrats took congress and FDR did not go home. Every businessman knows that Black and Brown Americans are loyalists and they have US Dollars, they will be good customers. White rage is 90% entertainment and little else. Tucker Carlson can ignite fantasy but he will never own reality.
By "swallowed it" you are referring to the Civil Rights laws. That was then, this is now. They are in the process of disassembling them 56 years later. They are after the 50 year old abortion decision. They never give up. But you are right about this much. They will disassemble so much there won't be much left .
"The Republican Party has reached the point where it does not recognize the legitimacy of elections unless it wins them."
That is exactly what Trump said during the 2016 race when he was asked whether he would accept the result of the election. He never hid his intentions. Like many other authoritarians. We have to take those statements seriously.
Remember Ruby Ridge? Tim McVeigh? Oklahoma? There is a Gene Pool of well armed Anti Government Males willing to use deadly violence which have included shoot outs with the FBI and other law enforcement. Proud Boys / 3 Percenters/ Storm Front are not afraid of violence. Some seek it. Some have little fear of dying. McVeigh looked directly into the Camera as he was being executed. Are these armed mad men the future of the Republic Party or just lunatics seeking political refuge with hero worship of Trump?
Maybe I am wrong. These are just recreational shooters waiting for hunting season?
In Central Texas where I live, these groups have been training for some time now. They are so brazen, that local gun ranges openly advertise training in "shoot to kill" with AK15s. I reported one in my town to the San Antonio FBI office, but I doubt that did anything to stop the training session. I won't go anywhere now where there are groups of people; it's too dangerous. I buy groceries curbside and I do all my shopping online. The armed, angry white males are menacing and they are everywhere.
Is there another kind of shooting one does with an AK15, one wonders? All kidding aside, there is an ubiquitous online gun porn meme of self-appointed "patriots" posing with their AK15s. I wonder if they comprehend the reality and finality of "shoot to kill," as a act. Or, is the contemplation of killing a human being as deeply felt as knocking off alien space invaders in a video game? Are they completely desensitized by the weaponized anger and redundant sloganeering of Fox and the radical right echo chamber?
The Russians have AK47. We have AR15 @ M4s flowing from the M16 Rifle. Both are used in shooting competitions. The US allows these to nearly anyone who wants one. There are 5 Million or more in private hands with sales soaring. This issue seems irresolvable. But the Proud Boys etc keep stockpiling them...
Why weren't this mob tear gassed from helicopters as soon as they stormed the barricades ? Why weren't those who attacked police shot ? Why were they allowed to violate the capitol with almost no consequences ? Where was the tear gas ? Why weren't those actively attacking police ad breaking windows and into offices shot ?
Agreed. At the time the Capitol police didn't have tear gas to use from what I've read. They hadn't been prepared for what happened. Many didn't even have helmets. I don't think it far fetched to conclude that the Guard hadn't been deployed early by design.
Trump planned it. He even changed the chain of command that dictates the response just weeks before and therefor, the slow glacial response, no tear gas, no rubber bullets, no additional national guard on a day we all knew was going to happen. Republicans even had a party tent w/cocktails, food, and multiple TV.s on a day Biden was to be confirmed? Give me a break. Barr even "let it go" (resigned) because he knew Trump was going to commit an egregious crime & it would bury him. Except, it didn't. The R party is led by men with no honor. It is Trump himself they are targeting in the investigation. Joe Manchin MUST stop protecting the dark side and his bedfellow Exxon.
This strange group is Rise of the Moors. All 9 surrendered and are facing pretty big charges over Massachusetts gun and magazine capacity transportation laws. This situation de escalated. They will all be in jail until July 6... They got caught when they ran out of gas at 0130 AM...phew..
Alcohol rarely leads to good behavior. Look at Rise of the Moors. They are about as strange as Proud Boys. Close Call. Both are clowns with AR15s and Glocks...
Lucian's article is the best explanation yet of the reason behind the madness: Following a tweet to Bill Kristol and my answer: Tweet: “The fundamental political conflict in our country is no longer between Democrats and Republicans. It’s between people who believe in a democratic republic and people who don’t.”
Replying to @VerityPace and @BillKristol
Robert Evans
That is so true, and Trump drew them out of the woodwork and breathed life into them. Jn essence he created a Frankenstein monster that has taken control of the GOP..
Massachusetts state police entered into a standoff with a group of armed men on Saturday morning (Massachusetts State Police)
Massachusetts state police entered into a standoff with a group of armed men on Saturday morning (Massachusetts State Police)
Massachusetts state police have arrested a group of “heavily armed men” who claimed they did not “recognise our laws,” following an hours-long standoff on a major highway.
The incident unfolded at 1:30am local time Saturday morning when a state trooper came across a group of eight to 10 armed men while they were refueling on the side of I-95 in Wakefield, a northern suburb of Boston.
The men told officials that they were travelling from Rhode Island to Maine for “training”.
These men were wearing tactical gear that included body cameras and helmets, and they had long guns slung over their shoulders.
Two suspects were arrested, but this prompted approximately eight males, who said they’re in a group called “Moorish American Arms,” to flee into a wooded area off the highway.
“Approximately 8 males fled into the woods carrying rifles and handguns and appear to be contained in the wooded area adjacent to the highway. No threats were made, but these men should be considered armed and dangerous,” the Wakefield Police Department said in a statement.
Next time, these traitors should be met with full military force. If they want a war, treat them like the enemy they are. No mercy, take no prisoners, shoot to kill. Personally, I’d have the military drop napalm on them, but I guess that would be too extreme.
Why weren't this mob tear gassed from helicopters as soon as they stormed the barricades ? Why weren't those who attacked police shot ? Why were they allowed to violate the capitol with almost no consequences ? Where was the tear gas ? Why weren't those actively attacking police ad breaking windows and into offices shot ?
My fear is they will bypass the Capitol for the White House in August after AZ reports out voting irregularities at the end of July or early Aug. And after reading Carol Leonnig's "Zero Fail" https://www.amazon.com/Zero-Fail-Rise-Secret-Service/dp/0399589015 it's an extremely scary proposition.
The answer is a huge campaign to get the group who came out to vote in the lowest numbers in 2020. The 18 to 35 yo. If we can get them from 50% to 70% all the obstruction will be slam dunked. And the young have low physical barriers to make it to the booth.
Lucian - from your analysis, it seems the only stronghold for Repubs is in local and state elections.
What if local citizens organized (loosely) in church basements and asked candidates point-blank where they stood on upholding democracy.
If the answer is that they're for anti-democracy authoritarianism, word-of-mouth goes out and people actively vote against that person.
Would it work? We have 18 months to make sure pro-democracy people are put in charge - especially at the state and local level.
I think winning on the state and local level is more complicated than that, and way less likely in the deeply red states. They're gone.
Not just the red states. I live in a red county of a blue state, the same county where the execrable Chris Christie got his political start. I was reading a book excerpt last night about those days, and the statistic was that, with one exception during Watergate, no Democrat had won here since 1910.
I agree that flipping red states is a true lost cause. But how many purple states would it take to tip into Pro-Democracy control? (We also might need to get rid of the standard party names, which are huge impediments to changing votes.)
TimPrentiss, all I can say is "be careful what you wish for." As far as I can tell, "democracy" -- the concept, not the buzzword -- is mainly popular with those of us who are more or less relativists. We can see multiple sides to any story. We can even see the good points of candidates we oppose and ideas we don't agree with. For absolutists this is not the case, and the current GOP is riddled with absolutists. Fundamentalist religions are riddled with absolutists. Absolutists say "my way or the highway" (if not the firing squad) and mean it. Absolutists don't leave anything to chance, and with free and fair elections there is always a significant chance that they're going to lose. IOW, "upholding democracy" is a meaningless litmus test because relativists and absolutists mean different things by "democracy."
Should a well armed mob torch Washington, and make Trump president they will have about 24 hours of fun and then the banks will cut them off, the hedge fund managers will walk away and the great corporations will go silent. The military will probably give them a few days to hoop it up and then go home. TV will be exciting and the internet will glow white hot. But in the end, Trump will be the leader of about five square miles and little else. The idea that Mitch McConnell or Kevin McCarthy and others will welcome Trumps triumph return is absurd. He is a useful idiot, little else. America loves drama and all the popular books are post apocalyptic. Such excitement! But finally the truth will prevail. In the 1960's Democrats in the south raised hell and made threats but no one wanted a Civil War. Nasty legislation can be shot down by sober judges or by Federal Legislation. Lyndon Johnson ignored the hysterics and passed the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts and the south swallowed it. Southern Business interests finance Republicans, if you scare the money people they will stop funding the Republicans and the Democrats will have the future. Remember, in 1934 Republicans said a lot of what they say today, branding Roosevelt a Socialists and worse, and the Democrats took congress and FDR did not go home. Every businessman knows that Black and Brown Americans are loyalists and they have US Dollars, they will be good customers. White rage is 90% entertainment and little else. Tucker Carlson can ignite fantasy but he will never own reality.
By "swallowed it" you are referring to the Civil Rights laws. That was then, this is now. They are in the process of disassembling them 56 years later. They are after the 50 year old abortion decision. They never give up. But you are right about this much. They will disassemble so much there won't be much left .
"The Republican Party has reached the point where it does not recognize the legitimacy of elections unless it wins them."
That is exactly what Trump said during the 2016 race when he was asked whether he would accept the result of the election. He never hid his intentions. Like many other authoritarians. We have to take those statements seriously.
I’m looking forward to the first GOP primary race that gets overturned. The fun begins when they start eating their own.
Remember Ruby Ridge? Tim McVeigh? Oklahoma? There is a Gene Pool of well armed Anti Government Males willing to use deadly violence which have included shoot outs with the FBI and other law enforcement. Proud Boys / 3 Percenters/ Storm Front are not afraid of violence. Some seek it. Some have little fear of dying. McVeigh looked directly into the Camera as he was being executed. Are these armed mad men the future of the Republic Party or just lunatics seeking political refuge with hero worship of Trump?
Maybe I am wrong. These are just recreational shooters waiting for hunting season?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi3j_vh_MbxAhUWCc0KHZ4ZA1YQxfQBMAF6BAgGEA4&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcboston.com%2Fnews%2Flocal%2Farmed-men-in-standoff-shut-i-95-in-mass-shelter-in-place-for-wakefield-reading%2F2421271%2F&usg=AOvVaw0hlVR2lkBJz_aR6BMqBrWg
...not exactly a "red state", that....
In Central Texas where I live, these groups have been training for some time now. They are so brazen, that local gun ranges openly advertise training in "shoot to kill" with AK15s. I reported one in my town to the San Antonio FBI office, but I doubt that did anything to stop the training session. I won't go anywhere now where there are groups of people; it's too dangerous. I buy groceries curbside and I do all my shopping online. The armed, angry white males are menacing and they are everywhere.
And I refuse to go to Texas, where armed militia roam the aisles of Home Depot.
Is there another kind of shooting one does with an AK15, one wonders? All kidding aside, there is an ubiquitous online gun porn meme of self-appointed "patriots" posing with their AK15s. I wonder if they comprehend the reality and finality of "shoot to kill," as a act. Or, is the contemplation of killing a human being as deeply felt as knocking off alien space invaders in a video game? Are they completely desensitized by the weaponized anger and redundant sloganeering of Fox and the radical right echo chamber?
They don't have a clue what killing someone, especially a fellow American, would do to them.
My husband says that all the time…he was an Army Ranger. But who wants to be on THAT end of the learning curve?
The Russians have AK47. We have AR15 @ M4s flowing from the M16 Rifle. Both are used in shooting competitions. The US allows these to nearly anyone who wants one. There are 5 Million or more in private hands with sales soaring. This issue seems irresolvable. But the Proud Boys etc keep stockpiling them...
Why weren't this mob tear gassed from helicopters as soon as they stormed the barricades ? Why weren't those who attacked police shot ? Why were they allowed to violate the capitol with almost no consequences ? Where was the tear gas ? Why weren't those actively attacking police ad breaking windows and into offices shot ?
This investigative report by the NY Times answers your questions. BTW, the GOP mob was tear gassed.
https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/politics/100000007606996/capitol-riot-trump-supporters.html?smid=fb-share&fbclid=IwAR17rlLob_mPfmDplSjjWD5ecgJLHsSMZ2acQNxQHYCrKZLPbYeGi8wVOpo
Late in the process, there was tear gas. Late. Probably after the mat. Guard arrived. Deployed early would likely have avoided breaching the capitol.
Agreed. At the time the Capitol police didn't have tear gas to use from what I've read. They hadn't been prepared for what happened. Many didn't even have helmets. I don't think it far fetched to conclude that the Guard hadn't been deployed early by design.
Ask the Nazis about Horst Wessel!
Boston Massacre and others
Deadly Force creates Martyrs. Ask the Brits about Bloody Sunday.
Trump planned it. He even changed the chain of command that dictates the response just weeks before and therefor, the slow glacial response, no tear gas, no rubber bullets, no additional national guard on a day we all knew was going to happen. Republicans even had a party tent w/cocktails, food, and multiple TV.s on a day Biden was to be confirmed? Give me a break. Barr even "let it go" (resigned) because he knew Trump was going to commit an egregious crime & it would bury him. Except, it didn't. The R party is led by men with no honor. It is Trump himself they are targeting in the investigation. Joe Manchin MUST stop protecting the dark side and his bedfellow Exxon.
The beginning may be underway...check out today's news from Massachusetts.....Armed insurrectionists from Rhode Island "training" in Massachusetts
This strange group is Rise of the Moors. All 9 surrendered and are facing pretty big charges over Massachusetts gun and magazine capacity transportation laws. This situation de escalated. They will all be in jail until July 6... They got caught when they ran out of gas at 0130 AM...phew..
Almost comical. How the hell do you do that going from one tiny state through another? Sounds like the emulsifier here may have been alcohol.
Alcohol rarely leads to good behavior. Look at Rise of the Moors. They are about as strange as Proud Boys. Close Call. Both are clowns with AR15s and Glocks...
Lucian's article is the best explanation yet of the reason behind the madness: Following a tweet to Bill Kristol and my answer: Tweet: “The fundamental political conflict in our country is no longer between Democrats and Republicans. It’s between people who believe in a democratic republic and people who don’t.”
Replying to @VerityPace and @BillKristol
Robert Evans
That is so true, and Trump drew them out of the woodwork and breathed life into them. Jn essence he created a Frankenstein monster that has taken control of the GOP..
This just announced: Danielle Zoellner
Sat, July 3, 2021, 7:59 AM·3 min read
Massachusetts state police entered into a standoff with a group of armed men on Saturday morning (Massachusetts State Police)
Massachusetts state police entered into a standoff with a group of armed men on Saturday morning (Massachusetts State Police)
Massachusetts state police have arrested a group of “heavily armed men” who claimed they did not “recognise our laws,” following an hours-long standoff on a major highway.
The incident unfolded at 1:30am local time Saturday morning when a state trooper came across a group of eight to 10 armed men while they were refueling on the side of I-95 in Wakefield, a northern suburb of Boston.
The men told officials that they were travelling from Rhode Island to Maine for “training”.
These men were wearing tactical gear that included body cameras and helmets, and they had long guns slung over their shoulders.
Two suspects were arrested, but this prompted approximately eight males, who said they’re in a group called “Moorish American Arms,” to flee into a wooded area off the highway.
“Approximately 8 males fled into the woods carrying rifles and handguns and appear to be contained in the wooded area adjacent to the highway. No threats were made, but these men should be considered armed and dangerous,” the Wakefield Police Department said in a statement.
Not the sharpest knives in the drawer. They ran out of gas and then ran into the woods.. Eleven in all=== in jail until Tuesday at earliest.
Next time, these traitors should be met with full military force. If they want a war, treat them like the enemy they are. No mercy, take no prisoners, shoot to kill. Personally, I’d have the military drop napalm on them, but I guess that would be too extreme.
They want war but the other side has the air force. Seems sorta poorly thought out.
Why weren't this mob tear gassed from helicopters as soon as they stormed the barricades ? Why weren't those who attacked police shot ? Why were they allowed to violate the capitol with almost no consequences ? Where was the tear gas ? Why weren't those actively attacking police ad breaking windows and into offices shot ?
Well, right, but tear gas early on would have scattered the entire mob.
My fear is they will bypass the Capitol for the White House in August after AZ reports out voting irregularities at the end of July or early Aug. And after reading Carol Leonnig's "Zero Fail" https://www.amazon.com/Zero-Fail-Rise-Secret-Service/dp/0399589015 it's an extremely scary proposition.
The answer is a huge campaign to get the group who came out to vote in the lowest numbers in 2020. The 18 to 35 yo. If we can get them from 50% to 70% all the obstruction will be slam dunked. And the young have low physical barriers to make it to the booth.
Uh, no. Sore losers merely sulk. Psychopathic losers turn to guns and bombs.