when are we going to come to our senses? when are we going to stop enabling genocide? when are we going to stop sending weapons of war to a country totally out of control with hatred for another people? I am ashamed to be an American. I am beyond angry my tax dollars fund this 'war'. This was a targeted killing of innocent people - one an American. when is enough going to be enough??
It's Hamas that has engaged in genocide - it's a strange kind of "genocide" you attribute to Israel, when they have fed the Palestinians, warned them relentlessly to move away from the Hamas and Islamic Jihad in Palestine missile and mortar platforms, because those legitimate military targets are the goal of the war, not massacres of civilians!
And what has Hamas done in the nearly six months since October 7? Released all their kidnapped hostages? Nope. Stopped launching missiles and mortars and drones FROM civilians areas in Gaza, INTO civilian areas in Israel, aiming to intentionally kill as many Israelis, civilians of all descriptions, women, children, men of any age, military or not? Nope, they've launched thousands of those, has Hamas - it's the so-called "triple war crime," and estimates are between 15-20% of the Hamas and Islamic Jihad weapons explode IN Gaza, killing their own civilians! A kind of "double genocide," that of Jews and Israelis and anyone else IN civilian or military areas of the State of Israel being a fervently determined pattern of criminality, the other being due to a depraved, reckless indifference to human life.
The "genocide" charge has no merit, no matter how often people deploy it as a smear.
Here's a plan to end the war and implement a two-state solution, we can all agree on that, maybe:
But what sort of Palestine? There lies the second area of agreement between Washington and Jerusalem. Each accepted it on condition of a complete overhaul of Palestinian conduct. Each posited three prerequisites. Bush offered "American support for the creation of a provisional state of Palestine ... if Palestinians embrace democracy, confront corruption and firmly reject terror." Netanyahu itemized Israel's conditions as a "guarantee regarding demilitarization and Israel's security needs," plus recognition of Israel "as the State of the Jewish people."
Together, these demands – which remain as central today as when first expressed – require a transformation of Palestinian attitudes and actions. (Still, they remain partial and other demands should be added; an end to PA vilification of Israel, recognition of Jerusalem as its capital, and a full normalization of relations.)
Unfortunately, those six conditions have virtually disappeared from the collective memory. Forgetting them, the United States and Israel engage in a useless "yes or no to Palestine?" argument. With them, the two governments can engage in a pragmatic and constructive "has the PA met the prerequisites?" discussion.
The PA, which turns 30 next month, has an extensive record on which to be judged. Here's a summary assessment on each of those six U.S.-Israeli requirements:
Establish democracy: PA leader Mahmoud Abbas is in the 20th year of his 4-year term and spurns even the rigged elections typical of tyrants pretending to be democratic.
Reduce corruption: Ghaith al-Omari, a former advisor to Abbas, finds that "a staggering 87 percent of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza believe that the PA is corrupt."
Reject terror: The PA brazenly celebrates the murder of Israelis. For example, a televised sermon declared that "All weapons must be aimed at the Jews." It also bragged about its role on Oct. 7.
Demilitarize: The PA has over 83,000 security personnel on which it spends one-third of its budget, making it (along with Hamas) the most militarized society in the world. (Only North Korea matches that percentage.)
Guarantee Israel's security needs: The PA last year endorsed an intent "to blow up all of the Zionist entity's cities."
Recognize Israel as the Jewish state: Abbas adamantly rejects this, taunting Israelis: "You can call yourselves whatever you want, but I will not accept it."
As the PA fails every joint-U.S.-Israel condition, Washington and Jerusalem have their work cut out. Time to end their useless squabble and focus on getting Abbas and his regime to fulfill those common-sense requirements, for example by reducing the PA's hyper-militarization. Accordingly, some humble advice to each government. *******
The Hamas Oct. 7 terrorist attack was brutal, horrific, barbaric, and completely inexcusable--no argument there. Hamas are terrorists whose explicit goal is to annihilate the State of Israel, who have not only no qualms about killing Jews, but also no qualms about killing or putting in harm's way their own people--agreed.
It's understandable that Israel would have a goal of totally eliminating Hamas. Nevertheless, Israel, in their attempt to eliminate Hamas, have launched air and ground attacks in Gaza that have killed over 30,000 Palestinians, over 13,000 of whom are children.
Questions:
* If Israel is trying to avoid harming non-combatants, why have they done such a spectacularly bad job of that? Where are the famed IDF special ops folks supposedly so skilled at guerilla warfare and surgical operations? Is Israel's entire approach to this war guided (as it appears) by the idea that they are willing to unleash unlimited violence on areas of Gaza after the totally inadequate civilian evacuation method of dropping leaflets, but their methods of aggression must not put a single Israeli soldier at risk? Is that why they seem to favor dropping unlimited heavy dumb bombs that obliterate entire neighborhoods?
* Gazans especially children are dying of starvation. This was completely predictable months ago, given the Israeli chokehold on minutely inspecting every aid truck that enters Gaza. If Israel is so concerned about not harming Palestinian civilians, why didn't they do a dramatically better, more planned and defended job, of appropriating, setting up, and pre-defending safe areas in the south of Gaza, and supplying them with massive amounts of food, water, tents, and latrines, that they themselves could supply?
I still have unlimited sympathy for the trauma that the direct victims and all Israelis suffered on October 7. I have run out of sympathy for the ways Israel has chosen to pursue its goal of eliminating Hamas.
PS. Has it occurred to Netanyahu, Benny Ganz, et al, that they could not possibly have conducted a better recruiting drive for Hamas, even if that had been their explicit goal?
You listed a host of tasks the Hamas terrorists wouldn't bother with, but where were the OTHER Palestinians rushing in to help? Too busy dancing in the street celebrating October 7?
It turns out that of course the drone strike was unintentional and a massive, reckless blunder:
IDF dismisses 2 senior officers over deadly drone strike on Gaza aid convoy
Attack on World Central Kitchen cars was against army regulations, probe finds; commanders believed Hamas gunman was in one car; WCK insists on independent probe
One thing that will NEVER happen on here is the people who rushed to insist this was all done intentionally by IDF orders, as a matter of some imaginary "genocidal policy against Palestinians" and even accused me of "justifying" the drone strike (???) because I posed an alternate, far more likely theory now being vindicated, is that they will reconsider their own susceptibility to relentless propaganda over months, seeking to marginalize the October 7 attacks, seeking to systematically leave out the realities Israel faces in Hamas, with Hamas still running Gaza after 17 years with no elections, as a fiendishly brutal terrorist state that murders their own internal opposition, etc.
Hamas hides constantly among their own civilians, Israel inspected the food and medicine shipments because they smuggle in weapons of mass murder - every single objection you raised to the way Israel has handled this falls apart on close scrutiny. UNRWA itself had agents involved in the October 7 mass murder! The international humanitarian aid sent for decades, looted by Hamas to build their terrorist infrastructure! Israel had no time to waste after October 7, this is ALL on Hamas and the feckless, inattentive international community, failing to hold Hamas in Gaza to account for many, many years.
And it isn't over: if any remnants of Hamas remain viable by the time Israel ceases chasing them down and dispatching them to their fate, they will regroup and try the same insane violent strategies again.
Dr Turnbull, I believe many of us have thought through your heartbreaking question. The answer is: we expect civilized people to realize what they are doing and to stop when the violence spirals out of control.
When you argue with your wife or children or people under your protection, do you allow yourself to go murderously wild when they display their continuously violent polarization? We would all be lying dead if we allowed ourselves this. Apologies if you find my example or terms inappropriately simple. But I believe we are longing for our supposed allies and peers to stop the insanity. Someone has to do it.
Your analogy is spot on. Netanyahu is destroying the good name of Israel and it's citizens by employing these murderous tactics, not to mention killing innocents who are caught up in the madness. It is Netanyahu who must be stopped. He is not solving any problems by dropping bombs on everyone. I also think his targets are deliberate, not the 'accident' he claims. The man is a monster.
"[W]e expect civilized people to realize what they are doing and to stop when the violence spirals out of control." So we agree Hamas and their supporters are barbaric and will never, ever stop, got it.
"When you argue with your wife or children or people under your protection, do you allow yourself to go murderously wild when they display their continuously violent polarization? We would all be lying dead if we allowed ourselves this. Apologies if you find my example or terms inappropriately simple."
I find this incoherent - the fact is you can't have it both ways, condemning Hamas barbarism as seen in the October 7 massacre and their murderous campaign internally against opponents in Gaza, and in launching missiles, mortars and drones from civilian areas IN Gaza, endangering their own civilians, indiscriminately shot into Israel, and then howling in disgust when then victims fight back, WARN the civilians to leave (as hundreds of thousands have done) and seek to end the reign if the barbaric terrorists.
Not a genocide? Ok, sure. How about "Absolute Indiscriminate Killing Of Innocents To The Tune of 30,000+"? There, fixed it for you. That makes it all better.
Half of those are HAMAS TERRORISTS, so much for the "indiscriminate" propaganda bilge.
MY god, some of the gullible sincerity of this is rather touching!
And how could ANYTHING "make it all better," Hamas and Hizbollah and Islamic Jihad are still around, the most fanatical right-wing fundamentalist Israeli settlers are empowered more and more the longer this lasts, it's a mess!
I think you have no idea how left wing my politics are: this Hamas mass atrocity / rapes / kidnapping genocidal war of aggression by Hamas helped a politician I LOATHE, but that alters nothing about the essential character of this terrible war.
Here is a REALISTIC plan to finally end this and have a Palestinian state:
You will be stunned to learn that the most virulent haters on the Palestinian side will be as unhappy as the worst of the ultra-orthodox Israeli settlers (you know, the ones who have sometimes had THEIR settlements bulldozed by the Israeli government!) are about the prospects of something like this.
But it is a very plausible model, otherwise it's just endless killing. Sporadic lulls. Back to the killing.
You sound a great deal like a defense attorney. I will look at your proposal, but you are to personally involved to be an objective judge of what is actually happening. In addition, what Israel is doing is damaging the image of Joe Biden and regardless of your views, I want Joe to win. Set your emotions aside and, in the meantime, I will read your many proposals. "Methinks the lady doth protest too much." Have a wonderful evening obfuscating the issue at this moment.
Look, I don't care AT ALL what you think about this , especially after the bigoted conspiracy tripe about "buying the Congress," it's clear that Israel is in need of more restraint, it isn't at all clear that this World Kitchen strike was other than a ghastly mistake.
Hamas, of course, remain the scum of the earth, and the most direct oppressors of Palestinians in Gaza.
I would accept that the killing of the WCK workers & volunteers was a "ghastly mistake" but argue that the "mistake" resulted from tunnel vision by high level officers who are so focused on killing any perceived Hamas members that they absolutely failed to focus on the clear markings plus all of the clear instructions that have allowed WCK to travel along that "safe" route. Don't those drones include cameras to enable controllers to see their targets in real time in order to confirm the targets? Simple dismissal of two officers as a response is inadequate and inexcusable (though I hope that the dismissal will result in negative reverberations in their lives going forward).
Nice argument counselor. However, it is clear the Israeli Zionists are seeking the extermination of all Palestinians. The long-held apartheid policies is one of the primary causes of this conflict. Nothing will satisfy Bibi except the extermination of all the Arabs in Gaza. That is clear to me. The other rhetoric is bullshit. There is enough blame here to fault both parties. The difference is that the Israelis have bought our congress through their extensive lobbying that the United States has funded to a large degree. Moreover, we have armed them to the teeth. They have full air superiority, plus missiles, sophisticated arms, and nukes. The killing must stop. It is no surprise the Israelis have never found a permanent home. I would support a two-state solution, but Bibi will never concede. At this point, he is no better than the Nazi. I appreciate and thank you for your personal beliefs.
'SERIOUS VIOLATION OF THE RELEVANT ORDERS AND INSTRUCTIONS'
IDF dismisses 2 senior officers over deadly drone strike on Gaza aid convoy
Attack on World Central Kitchen cars was against army regulations, probe finds; commanders believed Hamas gunman was in one car; WCK insists on independent probe
I have to agree that not one drop of Gazan blood would have been shed had Hamas not initiated an inhuman terrorist attack on an innocent civilian population that drew no s distinction between men, women and children in Hamas's brutal display of savagery. Yet hardly a whisper of protest from the same people that are now screaming about Israel's attempt to insure Hamas never again is in a position to repeat Oct. 7 which they have sworn to do. Of course it is horrible to see innocent civilians killed or injured because of their unfortunate luck of having sworn terrorists as their government. men with not a hint of compassion for their own people by launching missile attacks from civilian areas, even from hospital ground where they hide. It is these men Gazans should be blaming. If they had been born a few miles away in Israel they wouldn't want to see Hamas rise again from the ashes. In fact they shouldn't want that anyway as after the next Oct 7 they will have to endure the same thing over again.
As far as the World Central Kitchen volunteers are concerned, it could have been a case of mistaken identity but it could have been pilots so blind with rage they were furious to see perhaps Hamas fighters mixed with civilians being fed by outsiders. Not that that makes it right if that was the case, but the kind compassionate hearts of the volunteers got them killed. It would be like in WWII Germany if during the allied fire bombing some of our people went into Germany to feed hungry civilians. Not all German civilians supported Hitler but many did. We don't know how many Gazan civilians support Hamas, Many cheered when the g hostages were being displayed after being captured and driven to their destination. .
The new type of bomb Julian describes sounds terrible, yet if used against real enemies does ensure innocent bystanders are not killed too.
The bomb used [if it was used] was an intentional act in my view. These were people in a dangerous zone trying to help innocent people. These cars were targeted and the cars were clearly marked. Israelis are masters of destroying individual targets. I must conclude it was an intentional act. Car after car was destroyed. One mistake is possible, but multiple mistakes sound like the US in Vietnam. It is possible the pilots were blinded by rage. In Vietnam, some chopper pilots killed innocent civilians and they were not blinded by rage. They liked to kill and count bodies. Even so, is that a reason to repeat these inhumane acts.
Yes, it does appear that way, a very sad situation. I saw the parents of the American/Canadian interviewed on CNN. He had a young wife and a two month old I think they said.
When a group like Hamas or leader of a country attacks another country they seem to forget that not only their own soldiers will be killed but civilians on both sides. but I guess they don't care. But then you have war crimes, murders like this.assuming it was deliberate. It takes great courage to go into a war zone when you don't have to be there. ..
'SERIOUS VIOLATION OF THE RELEVANT ORDERS AND INSTRUCTIONS'
IDF dismisses 2 senior officers over deadly drone strike on Gaza aid convoy
Attack on World Central Kitchen cars was against army regulations, probe finds; commanders believed Hamas gunman was in one car; WCK insists on independent probe
Stop spreading the classic anti-Semitic propaganda, that line casts the leader of Israel as a "Nazi," the US Congress bought by Israeli money, an imaginary genocidal campaign waged against Palestinians (when of course it is HAMAS of Gaza, Palestine, who openly declare and glory in their stated goals of "wiping Israel off the map," and who murder dissenting Palestinians in Gaza!) and lies about this terrible tactical blunder and outright disobedience of the actual policies!
But you people are set in your ways, as a rule, and can't evolve your views in light to new information. Far worse is that others who are unwary fall for your propaganda.
Under Hamas these "senior officers" would fit right in, in fact, they would have had no contrary orders and rule to ignore! Targeting people feeding Israelis? Let's promote them!
L P Inness: I agree. Your heartfelt msg is such a contrast to the coldness of those who exclude from humanity nationalities and races not their own. …
Pls forgive OFF-TOPIC: I couldn't help but think of other messages you've posted here when I saw the Guardian headline "The fight for democracy / "‘You have imprisoned our democracy’: inside Republicans’ domination of Tennessee / "A year after the Covenant school shooting in Nashville – and a mass movement for gun control – Republicans have accelerated their attacks on democratic norms"
I doubt the piece contains anything that's new to you but, in case you didn't know, the whole world is watching:
We are a captured state - and citizenry. I am a county election judge and there are reliably only a handful of voters who vote Democratic out of a little over 1000 registered voters in our precinct. When I moved here 35 years ago, this was a moderate state with a Dem governor and fairly equal number of moderate representatives. Everything in the article is true - and more. We have many fine colleges and a land grant university system that is reasonably priced and staffed with excellent instructors. Most of the graduates used to remain in TN and achieved success. Now, most leave. There is huge gap in income, housing, education; corporations move here for low wages and little regulation; drugs and gun violence are rampant; it's a republican fever dream and it will take generations to undo. I am a native of Fairfield county CT and am unused to being ruled by one party drunk on power. The beauty of my adopted state is breath-taking and the kindness and friendliness of the people here is legendary. We are the Volunteer state and no one ever hesitates to lend a hand. I wish the politics weren't so corrosive and citizens could thrive - then it would truly would be paradise. Thank you for bringing this article to my attention - it is an accurate synopsis of the conditions under which we live.
Israeli and Israelis do not have "hatred for another another people" as you claim. Israelis want to be left alone, to live well, live peaceably, to create, to love and raise their children and families. You should not be "ashamed to be an Anerican" but should instead be aghast and angry at a society which 1947 has repeatedly, unceasingly, waged war and sought to exterminate Israelis. From barely older than toddlers, Hamas teaches hatred, repeats blood levels and declares the virtue of murdering Jews. Those are the people and the values of which to be ashamed.
One of those Israelis murdered by Hamas terrorists on October 7th was an elderly woman, a Peace Now activist who lived in a nearby kibbutz, who weekly drove to Gaza to pick up Palestinians who needed medical care, and she would drive them to an Israeli hospital. Realign your outrage after you learn.
Their acts against the Palestinians has not been consistent with your lovely words. Forgive my doubts as I recall the words of James Baldwin, “I do not believe what you say because I see what you do.” paraphrasing, of course.
Netanyahu is a bully and fascist. He learned fascist lessons well and apparently has not remorse about the murder of innocent aid workers. The US should be ashamed for supplying weapons to Israel.
And you make no mention at all of Hamas, what are they, if not Islamo-fascist terrorists - STILL holding kidnapped hostages, still vowing to repeat "October 7 over and over," still having not elections since 2007, still murdering their internal opposition, still stealing humanitarian aid, etc.
Yeah no Kathy, here's short list of what I REFUSE to justify, and it's YOU who I think are willing to be hornswoggled by superficial thinking into justifying a practically endless list of gruesome outcomes and daily oppressions of Palestinians in Gaza (as well as the directly attacked Israeli victims), by default, for failing to see that Israel is destroying the genocidal terrorism from Hamas, Islamic Jihad in Palestine, the Al-Aqsa Brigades, and Hizbollah, btw. I will get to that after the list of what I refuse to justify.
(1) No justifying a "rush to judgment" that simply assumes this MUST have been an intentional atrocity by the IDF, when there's been no investigations concluded, much less any official court proceedings.
(2) No justifying wild claims that there are "over 30,000 Palestinian dead" yet NONE of them were armed Hamas terrorists, the latter are never mentioned, yet they make up about half of the total! So much for "indiscriminate bombing," the IDF policy has been to identify legitimate military targets, warn the civilians with phone and text messages and leaflets to leave the war zone, and thousands did just that.
(3) No justifying the Hamas war of aggressive genocide as seen on October 7, 2023, not when proportionally, had that been in the US, the death toll equates to 40,000 Americans in ONE DAY. Even 9/11 doesn't come close, although Al-Qaeda hoped to catch many more tens of thousands workers in the World Trade Center.
(4) No justifying meritless claims of "apartheid" or "genocide" againstIsrael, those are simply not based in fact, and leave out a lengthy campaign over decades of Palestinian terror attacks responsible for a great number of barriers, checkpoints and vetting, but Arab citizens of Israel have rights incomparably more robust than those possessed by Arabs in any other state in the region. Syria? Lebanon? Egypt? Libya? Sudan? Somalia? Saudi? The Gulf States? Iraq? and so it goes. Arabs serve in the Knesset, both men and women have human rights comparable to that of the Jewish majority. The "apartheid" claim is just a stupid, vicious smear. Ditto with "genocide," the Palestinian population growth alone shows how strange that charge is!
Meanwhile: What of the gruesome fate of Gazans living with no elections, no democracy, no political opposition, no free speech or free expression, horrendous oppression of women and lack of women's rights, no legitimate courts, no rule of law except the law of Hamas: brutal beatings and torture, prison or executions for Hamas opponents, the obvious upshot being that to the extent Israel does extirpate the Hamas terrorists who still rule Gaza with no elections since 2006/2007, a great civil space is opened for moderate Palestinians to rebuild and participate in building a Palestinian state. To the extent that you fail to support Israel's warfare goals of eliminating Hamas as far as possible, all of that will remain, and it's definitely gruesome.
Here's a plan for peace between the warring sides, a state for Palestinians without the oppression they suffer under Hamas or their slimy ilk. Neither the far right in Israel or the Islamo-fascists would support any of it, that's a good start in itself.
The aid worker occupants of three separate vehicles, clearly identifiable, with prior notification to the IDF about their route and purpose, murdered. This is completely unacceptable. The cost in innocent lives of the attack on Gaza is far beyond “proportional.” The US absolutely MUST stop supporting Nartanyahu’s war unconditionally.
Intent is beside the point, the fact that they were killed with precision US provided weapons is unacceptable. The fact that they were killed at all is unacceptable. The fact that they had to be in Gaza in a meager attempt to stave off famine is unacceptable. The destruction of Gaza and its residents is unacceptable.
I stop reading for cogent legal, ethical, moral or any relevant content regarding the acts of adult human beings when the preposterous statement that "Intent is beside the point" about an act of war is mooted.
All you have is pointing out that Hamas and its war of genocide and the obvious consequences are "unacceptable," no kidding? What is the point of that posturing, when they began the war, continued the war, continue to hold kidnapped hostages, and continue to swear they will try for "October 7 massacres of Jews over and over again"?
"Hitler's intent was beside the point..." "The intent of aiming the gun at the guy with the machine gun threatening to blow up his hostages with the bomb to which he held the detonator is beside the point!"
Intent ALWAYS comes into play in wars - and the most quotidian examples of possible assault and battery, Ted. Just stop, you're effectively enabling the Hamas genocidal terrorists to appear morally equivalent to their victims! Talk about despicable and unacceptable...
You cannot be serious, this has to be a knee jerk response you will regret once you reconsider the impossibility, the sheer incoherence, of trying to apply this fairly and nonviolently within a framework of universal human rights.
This can't allow for mass murderers (Hamas) to hide behind human shields (Gazan civilians) and evade all attempts to make them cease and desist from murdering civilians (Israelis and other civilians) can it?
That cannot possibly be your proffered "morally good and reasonable" theory!
You missed my point entirely. You were excusing the killing of the aid workers as a justifiable cost of war, implying that it was unintended and a mistake.
My point is that the suffering of 2.2 million people in Gaza is too much. Those 2.2 million people are not complicit in nor responsible for the attacks on Israel. Yet they are the people paying the price.
You are claiming that Israel has no choice in how they respond. That the destruction of Gaza, including those 2.2 million people if that’s what it takes, is the only option Israel has to destroy Hamas.
You and Netanyahu are wrong. There are alternatives. Violence in response to violence is a choice, but never the only choice.
NO, no, no,. of COURSE I don't "justify their deaths," where did I say the attack was justified at all? Explain that first, because CLEARLY the two concepts are not connected in the way you think they are: The UNINTENTIONAL, mistaken killing of innocents cannot possibly "justify" the killings, from what legal or moral or ethical theory have you ever extracted that?!
No, it WOULD however, excuse the agents of their demise from being rightly held accountable for murder in a legal sense, i.e. a form of criminal homicide that is First Degree or Second degree - these hypothetical Israelis might very well turn out to to meet the standard legal test for "reckless manslaughter," but that's not the same thing.
Then you essentially agree with me: Hamas is embedded in the civilian possibility and making the civilians pay the price. They are being used as human shields.
Does it actually come as news to you, some kind of "revelation," that any army that advances in battle with human shields cannot possibly hope to avoid being shot at by the army
-or police or ad hoc civilian gunmen, or with crossbows, catapults, boiling oil from the fortress walls, you name it - and thus be licensed by international law to murder people as they see fit?
Then you just put words in my mouth, old debating trick / fallacy, of course I didn't say that the "2.2. million Gazans" would be destroyed "if necessary," no, of course not, and I can't help but notice the staggering hyperbole - there have been something like 15-17 thousand terrorists killed, and around the same number of civilians, that's a long ways from 2 million!
What Hamas had done and would like to do is bad enough without hysterical exaggerations, Hamas needs to be pressured from all sides to stop, release ALL the hostages with no cute pre-conditions, and allow food in without shooting at the delivery trucks and the IDF guarding the trucks, the hired security forces, and stop stealing the food and medicine!
You close with a silly bromide, that "Violence in response to violence is never the only choice," "Not even Jesus would allow his face to be slapped three times," is my response - and to point out that YOU are not responsible for protecting the Israeli population from the Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists, who have launched over 15, 000 missiles, mortars, and drone strikes at Israel's civilians SINCE October 7.
I would think some admission of humility in the face of that is called for, not "You shouldn't defend yourselves violently! Do something else!"
You refuse to see the point I am making. Perhaps an imperfect analogy: If the Tijuana drug cartel began violent terrorist attacks on civilians in San Diego, and they were embedded among the civilians in Mexico, using them as human shields, would it be acceptable for the US military to bomb Tijuana with tens of thousands of civilians killed as collateral damage? Then to ensure the drug cartel doesn’t re supply themselves, place an aid embargo on Tijuana to the point of famine to its residents?
oh yes, the LAST thing Israel would do...they didn't think there would be women, children, old people, noncombatants in all those buildings they obliterated? PLEASE, I've just read through your constant refrain on behalf of Israel. This Jew doesn't buy it. The right wing has taken over the government/military and are doing all they can to wipe others off the earth. It reminds me too painfully of why my family was always opposed to the creation of Israel.
Hard to believe that the Israeli soldier who pressed the send button on those rockets didn’t know exactly what the target was. Miscommunication? Misidentified target? Fired by a rogue Israeli missile operated? It doesn’t really matter at this point.
They knew what their target was. They probably heard that Hamas was using one of the cars as cover. Miscommunication with a very sad result. What a horrible, horrible weapon.
SECOND AND THIRD VEHICLES WERE ATTACKED 'FOR NO REAL REASON'
‘Serious failure’: IDF fires 2 top officers over deadly drone strike on Gaza aid convoy
Attack on World Central Kitchen cars was carried out in grave violation of orders, probe finds; commanders believed Hamas gunman was in one car; WCK insists on independent probe
With a weapon this sophisticated it takes a huge leap of faith to accept an explanation that it was a "tragic miscommunication" on the part of the Israeli military. Biden made it very clear today that the U.S, is running out of patience with Netanyahu and his policies killing civilians.
Btw - what on earth is the role of HAMAS in this? The mass media has been citing the systematically misleading "over 30,000 Palestinian dead" for several months, conflating all the over 15,000 Hamas terrorists into the total, I get that, we accept figures and estimates from Hamas later proven bogus - "Over 70% women and children," no, it's BAD ENOUGH without Hamas lying about the casualty toll consequences of using their human shields.
Bookmark this website and read it for ONE WEEK to begin to realize just how tendentious, selective, distorted, and laughably biased much of the mass media " journalism" has been on this.
Lucian sticks to facts, reasonable inferences, sound humanistic cautions and warnings about overreaching by the Israelis - they don't accept those sound standards.
Yes Netanyahu is terrible, no, that does not ipso facto make this "genocide," etc.
GIGO, the sophistication of the weapon's targeting parameter tech thrown awry from the jump by mistaken intel / identifications of useful legit targets, and THEN the lethality and precise targeting makes the initial mistakes especially deadly, no room for the initial blunders to be recalibrated by some "built-in" abort mission redundancies?
Oh that never happens in the fog of war, at night, with terrorists running around and embedded in the civilians in their thousands. Hell, no one dies from "friendly fire," and Hamas and Islamic Jihad in Palestine missiles and mortars ALWAYS launch clear of Gaza, they NEVER blow up on the launch platform, never fall short and kill dozens of Palestinians, never happens!
(Actually it's 15% -20% failures and Palestinian citizens in Gaza pay the price).
Ok, have it your way, but launching these things is not a matter of siting in on a vehicle and being sure (from a great distance) you have the correct coordinates, or didn't fail to be read in on the "agreed upon routes" with the people arranging this food aid mission.
I disagree now knowing how much has been spent buying influence in our government. This was not a tragic miscommunication. I have seen multiple tragic miscommunications in Vietnam and they were intentional act covered up. Stop the revision of history. This is not the Alamo.
Word salad, really? This JUST HAPPENED DAYS AGO in a "hot war zone." We will see what the investigations uncover, probably some unconscionable recklessness and stupid mix-ups on who was "read in" to the World Kitchen info, at the very least.
But the people leaping to accuse some unnamed IDF members of intentionally targeting them, knowing who they were, are absurd and disgusting.
Cavalier? Are you kidding, there is a massive investigation underway and, unlike Hamas, Israel doesn't intentionally target civilians hoping to kill as many as possible, and promise to never, ever stop doing it!
Yeah nice try, by the nature of things the Israelis and the USA appointed people who actually new something about the relevant events and didn't turn up the results you wanted, so that MUST mean they were not "independent" enough!
It's a canard, even so , no matter what kind of excuses you people have for denying it was a terrible set of mistakes in the "fog of war," the Israelis expected to see an Egyptian vessel and NOT what was actually there, you can't accept that but too bad, it's the consensus conclusion of numerous investigations. In a "hot war zone," happens in every war that extensive and intense, probably happened this last month in Ukraine, albeit on land!
I spent many hours reading about the infamous "Friendly Fire" incident involving the soldier from northern Iowa,* that also was unintentional. ******
"The tragic attack on the USS Liberty during the Six-Day War provoked a great deal of controversy and anger. The incident was the subject of ten U.S. investigations and three more by Israel. Though some accusations have suggested the American reports sought to hide facts or protect Israel, no credible evidence for these charges has ever been produced.
Here is a summary of the investigations and their conclusions:...." Read the results and learn something:
Chronicles the 1970 Vietnam death of Michael Mullen, his Iowan parents' outspoken opposition to the war and efforts to uncover the true circumstances of Michael's death, and the resulting governmental hostility and FBI surveillance.
Margaret Ellen Mullen (née Goodyear; June 11, 1917 – October 2, 2009) was an American antiwar activist who was motivated to protest after her son was killed in Vietnam by shrapnel fired from friendly artillery in 1970. She became an active opponent of U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War and protested against the Gulf War and Iraq War. Her life story was made into the Emmy Award-winning 1979 film Friendly Fire starring Carol Burnett, which was based on a 1976 book of the same name by C. D. B. Bryan.
This is one example. There were others. Perhaps cavalier was poor choice of words. I heard “this is war” among other responses. There have been other horrific instances. Realize Israel has always fought for their right to exist. Unfortunately right wing zealots seem to be running the show.
Well, "this is war" comes close to summing up how horrible mistakes with these deadly missiles can be inevitable, so there's that.
Do have ANY IDEA how many missions and missiles, mortars, semi-auto rifles, and drones and tank ammo is, or are, being expended?
This is thousand of Hamas terrorists, a population over two million, and the terrorists hide in the civilian infrastructure, illegally, using them as "human shields"!
It's been described as being more like "human sacrifices."
Yeah the right-wing zealots in Israel, and the Islamo-fascists in Hamas, what a mess, but the Israelis go to extraordinary lengths no other modern army does to avoid civilian casualties, FACT.
The Hamas terrorists, are you kidding? They would exult if they could wipe out ONE MILLION Israelis, and want more!
Go ahead cite a specific argument, troll - and as I was educated in the law, have the doctorate, and in philosophy, I can defend my views.
The fact is you confine yourself to vague statements because when you turn to specifics, it's the standard bigotry, not reasoned criticism of Israeli policies.
So while you may believe all sorts of inane nonsense about the rights of the State of Israel and of Jews to have a national state, just as the Palestinians have that right if they can ever get themselves organized and ready to stop trying to be an Arab version of North Korea, no one cares - least of all me. It's been adjudicated and the State of Israel is going to survive this - the elections will hopefully expel Netanyahu, and someone else can deal with Hamas, Hizbollah, the Al-Aqsa Mosque Brigade, Islamic Jihad in Palestine, and Fatah.
No, Hamas has to act, they can end the war TOMORROW, starting by releasing the hostages they kidnapped.
Next, they agree to stop fighting if Israel stops fighting, and disarms if Israel disarms from any military at standby and on the alert on their borders. Ceasefire in place and more food and medicine arrives, along with new housing and construction.
Then they demand that Israel's military, the IDF, subject themselves to war crimes investigations, and they will do the same! And encourage the Islamic Jihad in Palestine and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade to agree, too.
The killing of 30,000 Palestinians has not influenced Hamas to release the hostages or to negotiate for peace. They are terrorists. Destroying Gaza and murdering innocent civilians, most of them women and children, will not destroy Hamas. The civilians killed are the victims here, and you are blaming them for the actions of Hamas. And now they are at the point of starvation. Is that an acceptable cost? How many civilian deaths are acceptable?
They are NOT "most of them women and children," that's Hamas propaganda figures and debunked. Bad enough without the hyperbole, spare us that at least.
These grotesquely absurd rhetorical demands SHOULD RIGHTLY BE POSED TO HAMAS, sheesh, this is bizarro world quasi-amoral illogic run wild again, just like the bit where you were inadvertently foreclosing a violent shutdown of a child beating fiend, parent or not, by trying to weasel out of the wisdom summed up in the observation that "Not even Jesus would allow his face to be slapped three times," it's absurd.
Unfortunately, when a violent criminal evinces a settled disposition to prey upon and bully victims, at some point FORCE, even up to deadly force in self-defense and/or the defense of others, is legit, lawful, morally good, ethically sound, universalizable as a Kantian "Categorial Imperative," and it may be horrific as hell in the event, but there it is.
The law and sound ethics and morals also insists on trying to avoid this resort if possible, to retreat (albeit not within one's own home or residence),
to "de-escalate," when possible, to use proportional force, not shoot up the whole homestead and certainly not go after the perp's family, not start Hatfield /McCoy Law of the Old West feuds, none of that. It's terrible enough without going bonkers with it. Gang wars, etc.
Nice plan sir, but I think we can assume both Netanyahu, Hamas and Secretary Blinken have already considered and rejected those ideas. At this point the United States is becoming complicit in this genocide of innocent Palestinians and we must reconsider our military weapons support demand a cease fire so medical aid and food can be safely transported to Gaza.
??? No way that Hamas would have allowed the deaths of over a hundred key "bargaining chips"!
They hope to trade them for over a thousand Palestinian prisoners, i.e., as many ruthless, hardened, borderline psycho "suicide bombers" as possible! And other less fanatical worthies, yes, those too.
There is no assurance Israel will act in good faith if the hostages are released. Would you release them if you had had a miscommunication, then the response was killing every Arab in sight without thought? Get serious. Even an attorney has to have a rational thought every now and then.
Oh, Lucian, you've just broken my heart (again) and I have to get my spiritual super glue out of the drawer. The R9X is yet another example of the chasm between cleverness and wisdom.
What a horrific weapon. I get why it was designed. I get why the U.S. has used it only a handful of times with very careful targeting, to kill known terror masterminds. Looked at abstractly, it's a highly accurate way to kill all occupants of a vehicle without harming anyone nearby. Nevertheless, it's completely horrifying. That Israel struck the very clearly roof-marked car of a team of humanitarian workers, from an aid organization that coordinated elaborately with the IDF to inform them in minute detail of the location of their people, and who informed the IDF of this specific route and times in advance, is not comprehensible as a "mistake".
Spot on. Can assure you precision weapons/ord was not driven by the MIC rather by those in or retired from the mil who understand the full effects of war. Emphasis full effects. So when you read or hear the Dinosaur speak about overwhelming firepower and lethality (not going to mention names) they reveal their own ignorance of the totality of war and fall into the bucket that invoke some version of chit happens in war.
Have said this before, the effect of being in a US Service Academy and to a lesser degree colleges and institutions such as VMI, VT etc result in reshaping underdeveloped brain's away from what matters most in war, retaining one's humanity. They see war as numbers, statistics and probability absent what makes us hooman.
Of course there are exceptions. Lucian being one. Is more remarkable given his upbringing. So, while some can say Lucian does bring up war porn now and then he never fails to add context and perspective you will not find in most service academy grads never mind one with an illustrious family history in the US Mil. Oh, WTF do I know, am a mere merciless indian savage.
Thank you, ~Shadowcloud~, for so many insights. Certainly we have some leaders who appear to know nothing about war. (I know next to nothing about war myself, but try to bend my learning toward the humanity side.) That anyone - let alone the "leader of the free world", would say "How come we have nuclear weapons if we can't use them? Why can't we use them"? [not a verbatim quote] is deeply shameful and deeply ignorant.
Lucian is exceptional in many ways, I agree. And his knowledge and perspectives are especially remarkable given his heritage, upbringing, and education. If you haven't already, I highly recommend reading his novel about life at West Point," Dress Gray". It is both an absorbing murder mystery and a fascinating and extraordinarily revealing exposé on life in that military training environment, and as you say, how it shapes young minds, or in some cases repels or destroys them.
Finally, I realize you refer to yourself as a "merciless indian savage" ironically, as a reference to the brutal blindness of early immigrants, some of them my ancestors, toward America's first people. The journal "Of Plimouth Plantation", written by Pilgrim William Bradford, documented the first 30 years of the settlement. (https://www.mass.gov/info-details/bradfords-manuscript-of-plimoth-plantation)
The Pilgrims' treatment of the Narragansett and the Pequot was far darker and more violent than the sanitized, happy vision of Pilgrims and First People sharing corn and venison around a big table that was still presented to every American schoolchild when I was young.
My people have a long, long way to go to atone, and to stop oppressing in the present. Some of my mother's relations by marriage descend directly from one of the people who came on the Mayflower, and some of them still live in Plymouth, Mass. four centuries later. They are good humanitarians in this generation but the heritage is still there, inherited by all of us who inherit the results. The past is never over. It isn't even past.
Exemplary commentary which is expected from Massachusettians. head bows in ~respect~.
Yes, am familiar w/Lucian's books, articles, Op-Eds, and his life story and that of his ancestors. First walked the same path after Lucian's NYT piece on P4 aka David Petraeus. Much like he did WABAC at the USMA he stood tall and stood alone against the onslaught of what is come to be known as haters. Am not a fan of unfair fights no matter how they manifest so waded into the fray to give Lucian time to breathe, then be ready for more attacks that he treated much like a fencing master. (liv fencing terms since all my seeds fenced). And there are times when Lucian speaks about war porn I good naturedly invoke his ancestor Thomas Jefferson memorable DOI line of merciless indian savages. In a way it is also a shout out and compliment to Lucian for being far more enlightened than his slaver and slave raper ancestor.
Narragansett and the Pequot: My eyes wet due to being familiar with their history as well as other ~people~ in what is now New England. None other than Roger Williams stole their words then designated them loaner words, Now there seems to be more spoken in the American language than by what remains of both ~people~. ( A slight exaggeration 4effect).
And you're right about both war and in peace, humanity is the linchpin/keystone to both. A nation or its people can be at peace yet act inhumanely. The inverse happens in war zones where one witnesses acts of humanity that defy comprehension.
Lots of "war" flics have been made. From my perspective and mine alone The Flowers of War best captures the breadth and depth of war along with its many confluences. There is a trailer fir it on IMDB:: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1410063/. It's very different than how Hollywood long has treated war. Is at least rates as1/2 box of Kleenex brand tissue. And as is the case with the best flics the trailer doesn't do it justice. Me-thinks you can handle it if you are interested. The Flowers of War are definitely not for everyone.
"The past is never over. It isn't even past." ~Poetry~
As am fond of saying "~never forget~ is the only path to never again" Doesn't rise to your poetry after all am a merciless indian savage hence MUST be under or uneducated and of course can't read or write. Suppose that leaves us with only grunts nd groans (as some have depicted our 1000 plus tongues here on Turtle Island. And a reminder in the journal of the Mayflower dose Pilgrims noted and marveled that Squanto spoke the Queen's English.
Apologies for any typos my kind is better sending smoke as words than sending letters on a keyboard!!!!
Thank you again for this conversation. Btw, I should have given the citation for that quote. In a 1988 Washington Post article that my search turned up, about Strom Thurmond of all people, it is attributed to William Faulkner:
“The past is never over. It isn't even past.”
- William Faulkner, "Intruder in the Dust"
So the quotation is inextricably linked to racism.
PPS. Do I recall that Squanto spoke the Queen’s English because he had been brought to London by [traders?] and paraded as a sort of drawing room curiousity beforereturning to Plymouth to find his village decimated by white people’s diseases, before the Pilgrims arrived?
I am a huge supporter of Israel and have travelled there. based on Lucian’s expert analysis of the this attack on innocent aid workers I am beyond sad, frustrated and angry. I was on active duty as a draftee with in the U.S. Army when the My Lai massacre occurred in Vietnam(1969) and then the Kent State shooting of innocent American students by military personnel(1970).
I can understand Israel’s need to protect itself and even for retaliation but what they are conducting in Gaza now is pure punishment. They can never kill every Hamas fighter and if they did others would take their place.
I am reminded of my favorite anti war movie “King Of Hearts” from 1966 starring Alan Bates. I highly recommend this poignant film the moral of which asks the question; who are the insane? the mental patients or the armies of the world.
Still no explanation? WHAT is the supposed "false equivalency" and why is it even a proposed "equivalency," and why is it "false"?
And you can't possible blame migraines on someone posting views you find difficult to refute with hand waving, if it's that problematic - just ignore my posts, I can't comprehend why you or anyone else believes that clarifying my OWN views isn't intrinsically valuable, just as I would hope you adopt the same perspective on your own thinking about difficult moral and ethical issues!
Wrong. You need to explain your paralogical procedure so I can refute it - as it is, you claim floats untethered in a kind of N-dimensional semantic space, of course.
Do you see now?
What parts of the statement instantiate the alleged "false equivalency"?
This is known as "showing your work," anyone can simply read a passage of didactic text, and claim this or that unsound procedure characterizes it.
Clear? Now I am back to monitoring the CNN and MSNBC and other coverage of the I/P
disputes, as well as the funding of Hamas via "humanitarian" entities, and other strange connections between news sources relied on by the BBC World News and terrorists:
Given the BBC’s record of quoting and promoting Al Mezan itself as well as the casualty figures to which it contributes, the question of how that NGO’s notepaper arrived in the hands of PIJ terrorists holding hostages is surely one that should be of interest to a department set up in order to “build trust with audiences by transparently showing how BBC journalists know the information they are reporting”.
Related Articles:
THE BBC’S JANUS-FACED APPROACH TO THE ISSUE OF CASUALTIES IN GAZA
VITAL STATISTICS: STEALTH CHANGES MADE TO THE BBC’S GAZA CASUALTY FIGURES ARTICLE
BBC WATCH UNCOVERS THE SOURCES OF JEREMY BOWEN’S CITED CASUALTY FIGURES
See how that works? I could see immediately that the righteous outrage at the Global World Kitchen strike (which of cause I share) was leading to wild-eyed anti-Israel distortions from people like, well, you. Ergo, I just counseled against "rush to judgments" and emphasized just how sordid and horrific TO ITS OWN CIVILIANS IN GAZA the Hamas terrorists have been, to the point where they have forced Israel to inspect each and every food and humanitarian aid convoy for smuggled weapons!
^^^^^ THIS is what we need to overcome, as in: {EXCERPT - read the entire text!}
"Beyond that agreement, an eventual Palestinian state has become inevitable. True, a century ago, "Palestinians" meant Jews, not Arabs; but Palestinian Arabs do today constitute a people. Pretending otherwise smacks of futility. True also that reestablishing Jordanian and Egyptian rule in the West Bank and Gaza from 60 years ago is a more attractive alternative than a two-state solution; but both Amman and Cairo vehemently rebuff this idea. Israel ruling all of those territories protracts one of the world's most vicious and lengthy conflicts. So, Palestine it is.
But what sort of Palestine? There lies the second area of agreement between Washington and Jerusalem. Each accepted it on condition of a complete overhaul of Palestinian conduct. Each posited three prerequisites. Bush offered "American support for the creation of a provisional state of Palestine ... if Palestinians embrace democracy, confront corruption and firmly reject terror." Netanyahu itemized Israel's conditions as a "guarantee regarding demilitarization and Israel's security needs," plus recognition of Israel "as the State of the Jewish people."
{The Palestine Orchestra was a Jewish institution in 1936-37. -Graphic of concert
pamphlet}
Together, these demands – which remain as central today as when first expressed – require a transformation of Palestinian attitudes and actions. (Still, they remain partial and other demands should be added; an end to PA vilification of Israel, recognition of Jerusalem as its capital, and a full normalization of relations.)
Unfortunately, those six conditions have virtually disappeared from the collective memory. Forgetting them, the United States and Israel engage in a useless "yes or no to Palestine?" argument. With them, the two governments can engage in a pragmatic and constructive "has the PA met the prerequisites?" discussion.
The PA, which turns 30 next month, has an extensive record on which to be judged. Here's a summary assessment on each of those six U.S.-Israeli requirements:
Establish democracy: PA leader Mahmoud Abbas is in the 20th year of his 4-year term and spurns even the rigged elections typical of tyrants pretending to be democratic.
Reduce corruption: Ghaith al-Omari, a former advisor to Abbas, finds that "a staggering 87 percent of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza believe that the PA is corrupt."
Reject terror: The PA brazenly celebrates the murder of Israelis. For example, a televised sermon declared that "All weapons must be aimed at the Jews." It also bragged about its role on Oct. 7.
Demilitarize: The PA has over 83,000 security personnel on which it spends one-third of its budget, making it (along with Hamas) the most militarized society in the world. (Only North Korea matches that percentage.)
Guarantee Israel's security needs: The PA last year endorsed an intent "to blow up all of the Zionist entity's cities."
Recognize Israel as the Jewish state: Abbas adamantly rejects this, taunting Israelis: "You can call yourselves whatever you want, but I will not accept it."
As the PA fails every joint-U.S.-Israel condition, Washington and Jerusalem have their work cut out. Time to end their useless squabble and focus on getting Abbas and his regime to fulfill those common-sense requirements, for example by reducing the PA's hyper-militarization. Accordingly, some humble advice to each government.
Jerusalem: Stop re-litigating what you already conceded. Direct Biden's attention to the six unfulfilled conditions. Insist that they be accomplished to your – and not the Americans' – satisfaction.
Washington: Stop ignoring that the PA has made none of the requisite changes. Put the onus of change on Palestinians. Challenge them to prove worthy of a sovereign state." {MORE}
It's more that I think you're an idiot and a bigoted troll, there's a difference. You have contributed nothing but some stale anti-Semitic tropes and hand waving complaints about - well, something. Nothing substantive - you have no solutions to offer as far as dealing with the Hamas terrorists, for example.
I wonder why? Likely it's because you fit the profile described here:
For many years I have refused to participate in conversations about Israel, the Palestinians, Hamas, the PLA, Hezbollah, or whomever, including the US role, because they always devolve into who-is-the-bigger-monster. The whole situation in the ME is, of course, monstrous in the first instance. It is easier, at least for me, to decide who is making it worse, and who, if there are such entities, is trying to make it better. All those calling for an immediate ceasefire, and providing humanitarian aid, despite great danger, are in the latter category, except for the US. My anger at the Biden administration for trying to have it both ways, a leg in both camps so-to-speak, is reaching a boiling point. Calling for a ceasefire, finally, while continuing to arm one side is the height of hypocrisy, and absolutely atrocious. I understand, up to a point, the diplomatic delicacy of taking a very hard line with Israel, read arrogant war criminal Yahoo, which becomes more necessary by the day, but how are we not making matters worse with our dithering. We cannot look for praise for being peacemakers while still providing the means for making war. It is that simple, although many will disagree with me. Well, I don’t care.
It was absolutely deliberate. No question. The car was clearly labeled, and WCK had coordinated the route with the IDF. They bombed the car, then survivors got out and crawled into another car. They bombed that car. Then any survivors crawled into another car. They bombed that. Until they were all dead. This by Jose Andres is beautiful -- https://www.ynetnews.com/article/h1d8xgck0
By deliberate I meant a decision made by higher ranks than the drone operator. I have a twisted imagination that can conjure up motivations ad nauseum. But this….it doesn’t obviously support the right or left in Israel. The only direct benefit is to Hamas and Islamic terrorism. Indirectly this attack will motivate the left in the states to call for an arms embargo and a political push on Netanyahu to stop the war. So I’m left with this: Who Benefits? A faction in Israel? The left in the US? Hamas? My money is on Hamas. But how? And here is where I start to feel unease.
Netanyahu or someone close to him made this happen. They are trying to starve or otherwise kill Palestinians, and/or get them out of Palestine, so that they can take over Gaza and build Israeli settlements there.
US has been "threatening to withdraw support" for long enough, I don't think Netanyahu has ever been very worried about that.
Yes. The Israelis know our politics better than we do. It was intentional with thoughts that it would get trump elected. Bibi knows he can manipulate trump as he can smell a loser when he sees on. All these world bullies know trump is a pushover.
Richard, I was a Navy officer when Israel deliberately attacked the USS Liberty in 1967, murdering over 30 crew and wounding well over 100. They attacked for over an hour, by land and sea.
The lack of protective response by the USN is something I consider the most disgraceful conduct in USN history. Please don't call it a "canard". It was an LBJ disgrace, too.
Agree. The entire USS Liberty Affair is shameful and requires the suspension of all disbelief to claim it was a canard.
Richard doesn't understand weapons and ord, whether today's or yesteryears. Unless there is a weapon or ord malfunction an attack on a target is intentional. And applies 100fold to today's precision weapons and ord that have guidance systems/comm enabling the strike to target be called off or diverted to a safe zone.
Furthermore Richard of all people should know the rule, nevah evah defned the indefensible unless one is being compensated for doing so. The second part of that rule includes nevah evah blame someone else /some other party or attempt to rationalize the irrational or absurd.
IDF/WCK attack: Since there is general agreement on the weapon system-a drone- and the weapon-R9X*- the spacing in time and in distance make sense. The drone fired then flew past and returned to acquired the 2nd target, then flew past, returned and acquired the 3rd.
*R9X: appears to be the 5th time this weapon has been used, 2017 Sy, 2019 Yemen, 2020 Sy and Baghdad Ir in Feb of this year (the IRG). Although most pics/vids showed the vehicle in flames once the fire was extinguished there is no tell tale signature that comes with an explosive device. So, a fire, not a blast.
Only barbarians would support the package of tactics Israel is using against Gaza. Those tactics extend far beyond weapons/ord to denying water, food, and medicine to innocent civs. There is no doubt 7Oct was a barbaric massacre however that involved a single day. Somewhere in Gaza they must endure a different kind and different degree of barbarism 24/7 x 6mos and counting. Is highly improbable the orders to exact revenge haven't been issued from Bibi' and his government behind the pretext of we are only seeking to destroy Hamas.
FTR: I don't but the Gazan rpts on civs killed or wounded nor on their rpts of fighters KIA/WIA. On a daily basis and in aggregate they reveal the same ratio w/o change. That is one thing in war that doesn't happen. EVAH.
Another thing about the USS Liberty murderous attack. Years later one of the senior attack pilots admitted the numerous attacks were deliberate. He was ashamed of it, as the Liberty was defenseless. BTW, Israel, years later, paid millions to make amends. Too late for anybody, and I've never trusted Israel since.
BTW, I still think the CO, Sixth Fleet, should have been court martialed.
(1) Many don't understand the courage it took for those involved to speak truth to power including those who were still in uniform.
(2) Agree on your list of who shoulda' been disciplined. The USN did learn from their lack of accountability back then to where they are now.
(3) Many don't understand how living with guilt destroys the mind, the body, and the soul. One becomes captive to guilt as much like a free (the only wild animal is a hooman) animal is captive in a fuckin zoo.
I raise that because NBC Tom Brokaw's singularly anointed the WW Gen as the greatest GEN evah partly due to the high number of vets who nevah evah would talk about what they did. There are many reasons not to talk about combat, he didn't give thought that two are shame and guilt. And for fuq's sake there is no such thing as the greatest GEN only a GEN that does less harm than other GENs.
There was NO "deliberate attack" on what they identified as a US ship, that was the conclusion of the investigations:
"The tragic attack on the USS Liberty during the Six-Day War provoked a great deal of controversy and anger. The incident was the subject of ten U.S. investigations and three more by Israel. Though some accusations have suggested the American reports sought to hide facts or protect Israel, no credible evidence for these charges has ever been produced.
Here is a summary of the investigations and their conclusions: ...."
Richard, I know you know more than I do about a lot of things, but I wish you would really study the USS Liberty affair, There are other books, but try this one:
The Attack on the Liberty: The Untold Story of Israel's Deadly 1967 Assault on a U.S. Spy Ship
Calling that attack a "canard" insults the memory of every innocent victim. The U.S. has been a faithful ally to Israel since its founding. Reciprocity has been circumstantial..
"The tragic attack on the USS Liberty during the Six-Day War provoked a great deal of controversy and anger. The incident was the subject of ten U.S. investigations and three more by Israel. Though some accusations have suggested the American reports sought to hide facts or protect Israel, no credible evidence for these charges has ever been produced.
Here is a summary of the investigations and their conclusions: ....."
The USS Liberty was flying a U.S. flag sailing in international waters and had identifying markings on it’s hull. It admittedly was a spy ship that was not in Israel’s best interest. Although most of the United States investigation remains classified Secretary of State Dean Rusk said at the time of the attack and again in 1990 before he died that he believed the attack was intentional.
What?? How does that "insult" any victims, explain that, it's completely ludicrous - I literally have NO IDEA what you are talking about.
The "genocide" charge is TOTAL NONSENSE, got it?
"On Friday, Israel focused on the brutality of the Oct. 7 attacks, presenting chilling video and audio to a hushed audience.
“They tortured children in front of parents and parents in front of children, burned people, including infants alive, and systematically raped and mutilated scores of women, men and children,” Becker said."
This is TYPICAL of Hamas and Islamic Jihad: the intentional, openly announced and proudly glorified mass extermination of as many Israelis and Jews and their allies as possible (yes, they include Jews anywhere on their list of sworn enemies) for as long as possible, until they are stopped.
You can explain why you are seemingly allowing a moral equivalence between the terrorist kidnappers who murder innocent people, and their victims organizing in legal self-defense to track the perps down and kill THEM instead.
It's completely bogus and morally bankrupt. I for one do not intend to be bum rushed by the ridiculously superficial mass media coverage of this or that incident in an ongoing war, to lose sight of that.
And that Hamas refuses to even release all their hostages! Steals food meant for the civilians! Steals donated medicine! Shoots their OWN Palestinian population if they resist them, and have been doing so since 2006/2007, and with no elections, either!
It's a moral outrage that the discussions of this dramatic and tragic incident - which is only beginning to even be investigated, to see what went wrong - has stampeded so many people into effective dupes of Hamas!
But that's all too typical, we aren't Ukrainians being slaughtered by Putins invaders, and we aren't Jews in Israel being shelled and bombed day and night by Hamas and other terrorists.
A few months from now people who are shrieking about this will still not admit they were wrong, when it turns out this was a multiple-level screwup within the IDF's communications, and the soldiers who are disciplined for mistakenly approving the launch are guilty of laziness and incompetence, but recklessness like that that is not evidence of "genocide" or "genocidal intent."
With Hamas and Hizbollah ("Army of Allah") it's a daily occurrence they exult in, to intentionally massacre civilians.
The attack on the Liberty was an accident. Reparations were made, deep apologies given.
If (and this is a great huge improbable IF) this was accidental how can it be explained? WCK is known in Israel; the route was announced as a planned movement of WCK vehicles; the vehicles were well marked in an approved manner; the IDF knew of the plan.
And the most damning thing is the choice of rocket used. When I compared the photos that Lucian provided, I cringed. I really dislike conspiracy theories and those who spread them. However until the IDF can explain completely the sequence of events in a manner that indicates truth telling, I will continue to be uneasy.
I would say that Israel has lost me, something I never thought could happen, if tens of thousands of Israelis were not taking to the streets. As long as we keep sending weapons like these we will be as guilty as those who use them to commit genocide.
It clearly does NOT meet the criteria of "genocide," it's bad enough there was a massive internal communications fail within the Israeli military!
And a very strange kind of "genocide" that systematically warns civilians to flee to avoid military operations! That allows food and medicine in, that allows Israeli Palestinian Arabs to vote and serve in government - the Knesset, etc. No, this was a completely botched operational
disaster, but not intentional targeting of some food trucks.
BS. What you have posted here on this conflict since it began has been a robotic carbon copy of what Bebe's propaganda machine churns out. I don't buy it from him, I don't buy it from anyone in his government, and I don't buy it from you.
So you edited this, and now claim my carefully arrived positions on this are NOT the product of MY OWN research and reflection over many decades - since the 1967 six-day-war, in fact, what a disgusting smear against me, and so absurdly laughable!
You actually BELIEVE you can refute views you disagree with by showing they are "churned out" by someone, but that's NOT any kind of substantive rebuttal!
LOL, I cannot take this seriously, as you seem to actually believe I somehow or other am connected with the odious Netanyahu "because" YOU can't offer substantive support for any concrete, relevant refutations on policies he may or may not be correct about - and rushed to judgment, on what turned out to be a ghastly mistake, not a conscious and intentional act of military policy in this war.
So be it, I will just have to forge on even with your disapproval.
LOL, that's not a substantive rebuttal. Clearly the most likely scenario is a total breakdown of internal Israeli military communication (this is a hard fought war, Hamas has launched thousands and thousands of missiles, mortars and drones since October 7) and they ineptly fired that drone or missile strike at the wrong target.
The court did not rule that Israel has committed genocide (such a finding would normally take months or years to arrive at), but entertained the plausibility of such a charge, using the mischaracterized quotes to manufacture possible intent (a necessary component for genocide) and a slew of statements from biased U.N. agencies or officials.
The agencies cited included UNRWA, which has served as a mouthpiece for Hamas propaganda throughout the war (and long before), and has now had most of its funding suspended due to revelations that staff participated in the Hamas atrocities on Oct. 7. The officials cited include U.N. Special Rapporteurs who warned of genocide, led by former UNRWA employee and current Special Rapporteur on the “Occupied Palestinian Territories” Francesca Albanese. Albanese has told Hamas genocidaires that it has a “right to resist” and has complained that the Jewish lobby subjugates the United States, so her work should be considered radioactive, but in the U.N. context, this qualifies her as an “expert.” The ICJ is part of the U.N. system, so it should be no surprise that it built its decision on such a rotted foundation.
Having written all that, the ICJ could have chosen the even more radical route advocated by South Africa: decreeing preliminary measures to force Israel to stop its campaign against Hamas. It pointedly stopped well short of that (though, of course, could chose to do so later). The preliminary measures that the court adopted include telling Israel to make sure that genocide is not committed (it isn’t) and that Israel report back on its efforts in a month (which is unnecessary).
Prior to the decision, Hamas, expecting a win, said it would abide by the court’s ruling. The court called for the immediate and unconditional release of the Israeli hostages. Unconditional meaning: not as part of an exchange, not for a ceasefire, but right now. Unsurprisingly, Hamas went back on its word and did not release a single hostage (while also still cheering the decision and acting like it was a victory), despite talk of progress in hostage negotiations for weeks. In her dissenting opinion, one judge somewhat mirrored B’nai B’rith’s own arguments by calling on South Africa, which has hosted the terror group’s leaders, to pressure Hamas on this point —don’t hold your breath.
While the court decision was a victory in some ways for Israel—no preliminary measure calling for a ceasefire, and a call for Hamas to immediately release hostages (actually, even without a ceasefire)—the ICJ’s actions are incredibly dangerous. By entertaining South Africa’s blood libel, not by ruling that genocide was taking place but merely by saying that such an absurdity was plausible, the ICJ is legitimizing the genocide charge. The ICJ decision demonizes the Jewish state, making its defensive efforts in Gaza even more complicated, but is equally dangerous to Jews in the Diaspora. On the streets and in social media, anti-Israel elements are acting as if the ICJ ruled that genocide had occurred. Violent mobs are going after Jews spewing hate about “genocide.” Just this week, the FBI arrested a man who threatened Jewish institutions in Massachusetts. He justified his action as a response to “genocide” in Gaza. We can only assume that this will continue and grow.
Wow, that's an admission you can't supply it? LOL, instead, just label any view with which you disagree as "propaganda"!
That's not even consistent and coherent, it's on the level of admitting that you don't even recognize you could be WRONG!
THIS is what's going on, see if you can recognize the syndrome and realize it actually fits the procedure: "If I encounter views on Israel/Palestine I ferociously reject, that's it, I am terming those views `propaganda' and any critical thought applications to assess their merits or failings is impossible from that point. Because I do not `debate' propaganda." Which simply refuses to deal with the ideas, shutting your eyes, covering your ears, get a clue!
"Balas Berkovitz, a research fellow of the London Centre for the Study of Contemporary Antisemitism, recently published a paper at the journal K titled “The October 7th pogrom as a non-event on the Western left“, delving into the disturbing phenomenon of the pro-Palestinian left’s silence, and even excuse-making, in the face of Hamas’s sadistic orgy of antisemitic violence.
Berkowitz, in the immediate aftermath of Oct. 7, expressed the wish of many that, perhaps, there would be some soul-searching among supporters of the Palestinian cause, and a reaction along the lines of , at the very least, “this is not how we imagined Palestinian resistance,” or that they’d find more truthful words to designate the genocidal antisemitic motive at the core of the Hamas massacre.
But, he added, save a few voices, this was not to be, citing the impact of an rigid “ideological edifice constraining thinking” which forces adherents to “dismiss real-world evidence that could challenge their established interpretations”, which he likens to “the obstinate defense of Stalinism and Maoism, the denial of the existence of the Gulag, etc. [which] were…the hallmarks of much left-wing intelligentsia well into the…1960s”.
As Shany Mor argued, citing the Guardian rush to obscure the antisemitic atrocity by publishing a rash of columns in the immediate aftermath of Oct. 7 by accusing Israel of genocide, even while dead, burned and mutilated bodies – or, more often, parts or traces of what were once living human beings – were still being found: “Cognitive-dissonance reduction’ requires vilifying the victim to uphold one’s prejudices”. Cognitive dissonance reduction, Mor explained, is the process by which people reconcile new information that contradicts their firmly held priors.
Western activists for Palestinians, Mor added, “are dedicated to two nearly theological precepts: that Israel is evil, and that no Palestinian action is ever connected to any Palestinian outcome."
The attack was deliberate. The drone crew knew exactly what they were looking at and what they were doing. The attack was a war crime of the highest degree. The only remaining question - who ordered the hit?
A few facts that have been left out of the narrative fed to us by Israel. It was not AN attack. There were THREE seperate strikes by the IDF on three individual vehicles over a period of time while the occupants were in contact with them and moving survivors and the dead between vehicles
This is appears to be part of of a coordinated plan to frighten coerce aid agencies to withdraw from Gaza in order to further the use of starvation as a weapon of war against the population.
Don't believe me, listen to the Spanish-American founder of World Central Kitchen, José Andrés talking to the Reuters news agency https://youtu.be/ddoBO4KToSw?
Again, I state I believe that, by supplying the weapons, America risks prosecution for aiding and abetting Israel in crimes against humanity and/or genocide.
Thank you for adding those facts, Craig. I think they clarify some confusion about survivors in SusanRN's long thread here. Some of the humanitarians did survive initially, but the Israelis made sure that ultimately none lived to tell the tale.
when are we going to come to our senses? when are we going to stop enabling genocide? when are we going to stop sending weapons of war to a country totally out of control with hatred for another people? I am ashamed to be an American. I am beyond angry my tax dollars fund this 'war'. This was a targeted killing of innocent people - one an American. when is enough going to be enough??
It's Hamas that has engaged in genocide - it's a strange kind of "genocide" you attribute to Israel, when they have fed the Palestinians, warned them relentlessly to move away from the Hamas and Islamic Jihad in Palestine missile and mortar platforms, because those legitimate military targets are the goal of the war, not massacres of civilians!
And what has Hamas done in the nearly six months since October 7? Released all their kidnapped hostages? Nope. Stopped launching missiles and mortars and drones FROM civilians areas in Gaza, INTO civilian areas in Israel, aiming to intentionally kill as many Israelis, civilians of all descriptions, women, children, men of any age, military or not? Nope, they've launched thousands of those, has Hamas - it's the so-called "triple war crime," and estimates are between 15-20% of the Hamas and Islamic Jihad weapons explode IN Gaza, killing their own civilians! A kind of "double genocide," that of Jews and Israelis and anyone else IN civilian or military areas of the State of Israel being a fervently determined pattern of criminality, the other being due to a depraved, reckless indifference to human life.
The "genocide" charge has no merit, no matter how often people deploy it as a smear.
Here's a plan to end the war and implement a two-state solution, we can all agree on that, maybe:
https://www.danielpipes.org/22223/my-six-step-plan-for-a-two-state-solution?utm_source=Middle+East+Forum&utm_campaign=7fdcf49781-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2024_04_04_12_38&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_086cfd423c-7fdcf49781-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D&goal=0_086cfd423c-7fdcf49781-33654329&mc_cid=7fdcf49781&mc_eid=e9890ace88
EXCERPT:
But what sort of Palestine? There lies the second area of agreement between Washington and Jerusalem. Each accepted it on condition of a complete overhaul of Palestinian conduct. Each posited three prerequisites. Bush offered "American support for the creation of a provisional state of Palestine ... if Palestinians embrace democracy, confront corruption and firmly reject terror." Netanyahu itemized Israel's conditions as a "guarantee regarding demilitarization and Israel's security needs," plus recognition of Israel "as the State of the Jewish people."
Together, these demands – which remain as central today as when first expressed – require a transformation of Palestinian attitudes and actions. (Still, they remain partial and other demands should be added; an end to PA vilification of Israel, recognition of Jerusalem as its capital, and a full normalization of relations.)
Unfortunately, those six conditions have virtually disappeared from the collective memory. Forgetting them, the United States and Israel engage in a useless "yes or no to Palestine?" argument. With them, the two governments can engage in a pragmatic and constructive "has the PA met the prerequisites?" discussion.
The PA, which turns 30 next month, has an extensive record on which to be judged. Here's a summary assessment on each of those six U.S.-Israeli requirements:
Establish democracy: PA leader Mahmoud Abbas is in the 20th year of his 4-year term and spurns even the rigged elections typical of tyrants pretending to be democratic.
Reduce corruption: Ghaith al-Omari, a former advisor to Abbas, finds that "a staggering 87 percent of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza believe that the PA is corrupt."
Reject terror: The PA brazenly celebrates the murder of Israelis. For example, a televised sermon declared that "All weapons must be aimed at the Jews." It also bragged about its role on Oct. 7.
Demilitarize: The PA has over 83,000 security personnel on which it spends one-third of its budget, making it (along with Hamas) the most militarized society in the world. (Only North Korea matches that percentage.)
Guarantee Israel's security needs: The PA last year endorsed an intent "to blow up all of the Zionist entity's cities."
Recognize Israel as the Jewish state: Abbas adamantly rejects this, taunting Israelis: "You can call yourselves whatever you want, but I will not accept it."
As the PA fails every joint-U.S.-Israel condition, Washington and Jerusalem have their work cut out. Time to end their useless squabble and focus on getting Abbas and his regime to fulfill those common-sense requirements, for example by reducing the PA's hyper-militarization. Accordingly, some humble advice to each government. *******
The Hamas Oct. 7 terrorist attack was brutal, horrific, barbaric, and completely inexcusable--no argument there. Hamas are terrorists whose explicit goal is to annihilate the State of Israel, who have not only no qualms about killing Jews, but also no qualms about killing or putting in harm's way their own people--agreed.
It's understandable that Israel would have a goal of totally eliminating Hamas. Nevertheless, Israel, in their attempt to eliminate Hamas, have launched air and ground attacks in Gaza that have killed over 30,000 Palestinians, over 13,000 of whom are children.
Questions:
* If Israel is trying to avoid harming non-combatants, why have they done such a spectacularly bad job of that? Where are the famed IDF special ops folks supposedly so skilled at guerilla warfare and surgical operations? Is Israel's entire approach to this war guided (as it appears) by the idea that they are willing to unleash unlimited violence on areas of Gaza after the totally inadequate civilian evacuation method of dropping leaflets, but their methods of aggression must not put a single Israeli soldier at risk? Is that why they seem to favor dropping unlimited heavy dumb bombs that obliterate entire neighborhoods?
* Gazans especially children are dying of starvation. This was completely predictable months ago, given the Israeli chokehold on minutely inspecting every aid truck that enters Gaza. If Israel is so concerned about not harming Palestinian civilians, why didn't they do a dramatically better, more planned and defended job, of appropriating, setting up, and pre-defending safe areas in the south of Gaza, and supplying them with massive amounts of food, water, tents, and latrines, that they themselves could supply?
I still have unlimited sympathy for the trauma that the direct victims and all Israelis suffered on October 7. I have run out of sympathy for the ways Israel has chosen to pursue its goal of eliminating Hamas.
PS. Has it occurred to Netanyahu, Benny Ganz, et al, that they could not possibly have conducted a better recruiting drive for Hamas, even if that had been their explicit goal?
You listed a host of tasks the Hamas terrorists wouldn't bother with, but where were the OTHER Palestinians rushing in to help? Too busy dancing in the street celebrating October 7?
It turns out that of course the drone strike was unintentional and a massive, reckless blunder:
www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/05/israeli-inquiry-blames-wck-aid-killings-on-grave-errors-by-military-personnel
apnews.com/article/israel-world-central-kitchen-gaza-aid-workers-69b6176362dafc8e4e2754b2342faa1d
IDF dismisses 2 senior officers over deadly drone strike on Gaza aid convoy
Attack on World Central Kitchen cars was against army regulations, probe finds; commanders believed Hamas gunman was in one car; WCK insists on independent probe
By EMANUEL FABIAN FOLLOW
Today, 2:59 pmUpdated at 3:21 pm
www.timesofisrael.com/idf-dismisses-2-senior-officers-over-deadly-drone-strike-on-gaza-aid-convoy/
One thing that will NEVER happen on here is the people who rushed to insist this was all done intentionally by IDF orders, as a matter of some imaginary "genocidal policy against Palestinians" and even accused me of "justifying" the drone strike (???) because I posed an alternate, far more likely theory now being vindicated, is that they will reconsider their own susceptibility to relentless propaganda over months, seeking to marginalize the October 7 attacks, seeking to systematically leave out the realities Israel faces in Hamas, with Hamas still running Gaza after 17 years with no elections, as a fiendishly brutal terrorist state that murders their own internal opposition, etc.
Hamas hides constantly among their own civilians, Israel inspected the food and medicine shipments because they smuggle in weapons of mass murder - every single objection you raised to the way Israel has handled this falls apart on close scrutiny. UNRWA itself had agents involved in the October 7 mass murder! The international humanitarian aid sent for decades, looted by Hamas to build their terrorist infrastructure! Israel had no time to waste after October 7, this is ALL on Hamas and the feckless, inattentive international community, failing to hold Hamas in Gaza to account for many, many years.
And it isn't over: if any remnants of Hamas remain viable by the time Israel ceases chasing them down and dispatching them to their fate, they will regroup and try the same insane violent strategies again.
Dr Turnbull, I believe many of us have thought through your heartbreaking question. The answer is: we expect civilized people to realize what they are doing and to stop when the violence spirals out of control.
When you argue with your wife or children or people under your protection, do you allow yourself to go murderously wild when they display their continuously violent polarization? We would all be lying dead if we allowed ourselves this. Apologies if you find my example or terms inappropriately simple. But I believe we are longing for our supposed allies and peers to stop the insanity. Someone has to do it.
Your analogy is spot on. Netanyahu is destroying the good name of Israel and it's citizens by employing these murderous tactics, not to mention killing innocents who are caught up in the madness. It is Netanyahu who must be stopped. He is not solving any problems by dropping bombs on everyone. I also think his targets are deliberate, not the 'accident' he claims. The man is a monster.
"[W]e expect civilized people to realize what they are doing and to stop when the violence spirals out of control." So we agree Hamas and their supporters are barbaric and will never, ever stop, got it.
"When you argue with your wife or children or people under your protection, do you allow yourself to go murderously wild when they display their continuously violent polarization? We would all be lying dead if we allowed ourselves this. Apologies if you find my example or terms inappropriately simple."
I find this incoherent - the fact is you can't have it both ways, condemning Hamas barbarism as seen in the October 7 massacre and their murderous campaign internally against opponents in Gaza, and in launching missiles, mortars and drones from civilian areas IN Gaza, endangering their own civilians, indiscriminately shot into Israel, and then howling in disgust when then victims fight back, WARN the civilians to leave (as hundreds of thousands have done) and seek to end the reign if the barbaric terrorists.
Not a genocide? Ok, sure. How about "Absolute Indiscriminate Killing Of Innocents To The Tune of 30,000+"? There, fixed it for you. That makes it all better.
Half of those are HAMAS TERRORISTS, so much for the "indiscriminate" propaganda bilge.
MY god, some of the gullible sincerity of this is rather touching!
And how could ANYTHING "make it all better," Hamas and Hizbollah and Islamic Jihad are still around, the most fanatical right-wing fundamentalist Israeli settlers are empowered more and more the longer this lasts, it's a mess!
I think you have no idea how left wing my politics are: this Hamas mass atrocity / rapes / kidnapping genocidal war of aggression by Hamas helped a politician I LOATHE, but that alters nothing about the essential character of this terrible war.
Here is a REALISTIC plan to finally end this and have a Palestinian state:
https://www.danielpipes.org/22223/my-six-step-plan-for-a-two-state-solution?utm_source=Middle+East+Forum&utm_campaign=7fdcf49781-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2024_04_04_12_38&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_086cfd423c-7fdcf49781-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D&goal=0_086cfd423c-7fdcf49781-33654329&mc_cid=7fdcf49781&mc_eid=e9890ace88
You will be stunned to learn that the most virulent haters on the Palestinian side will be as unhappy as the worst of the ultra-orthodox Israeli settlers (you know, the ones who have sometimes had THEIR settlements bulldozed by the Israeli government!) are about the prospects of something like this.
But it is a very plausible model, otherwise it's just endless killing. Sporadic lulls. Back to the killing.
You sound a great deal like a defense attorney. I will look at your proposal, but you are to personally involved to be an objective judge of what is actually happening. In addition, what Israel is doing is damaging the image of Joe Biden and regardless of your views, I want Joe to win. Set your emotions aside and, in the meantime, I will read your many proposals. "Methinks the lady doth protest too much." Have a wonderful evening obfuscating the issue at this moment.
Look, I don't care AT ALL what you think about this , especially after the bigoted conspiracy tripe about "buying the Congress," it's clear that Israel is in need of more restraint, it isn't at all clear that this World Kitchen strike was other than a ghastly mistake.
Hamas, of course, remain the scum of the earth, and the most direct oppressors of Palestinians in Gaza.
I would accept that the killing of the WCK workers & volunteers was a "ghastly mistake" but argue that the "mistake" resulted from tunnel vision by high level officers who are so focused on killing any perceived Hamas members that they absolutely failed to focus on the clear markings plus all of the clear instructions that have allowed WCK to travel along that "safe" route. Don't those drones include cameras to enable controllers to see their targets in real time in order to confirm the targets? Simple dismissal of two officers as a response is inadequate and inexcusable (though I hope that the dismissal will result in negative reverberations in their lives going forward).
Nice argument counselor. However, it is clear the Israeli Zionists are seeking the extermination of all Palestinians. The long-held apartheid policies is one of the primary causes of this conflict. Nothing will satisfy Bibi except the extermination of all the Arabs in Gaza. That is clear to me. The other rhetoric is bullshit. There is enough blame here to fault both parties. The difference is that the Israelis have bought our congress through their extensive lobbying that the United States has funded to a large degree. Moreover, we have armed them to the teeth. They have full air superiority, plus missiles, sophisticated arms, and nukes. The killing must stop. It is no surprise the Israelis have never found a permanent home. I would support a two-state solution, but Bibi will never concede. At this point, he is no better than the Nazi. I appreciate and thank you for your personal beliefs.
www.timesofisrael.com/idf-dismisses-2-senior-officers-over-deadly-drone-strike-on-gaza-aid-convoy/
'SERIOUS VIOLATION OF THE RELEVANT ORDERS AND INSTRUCTIONS'
IDF dismisses 2 senior officers over deadly drone strike on Gaza aid convoy
Attack on World Central Kitchen cars was against army regulations, probe finds; commanders believed Hamas gunman was in one car; WCK insists on independent probe
By EMANUEL FABIAN FOLLOW
***** SO MUCH FOR YOUR SMEAR TACTIC!
LOL, classic anti-Semitic tropes, is the Protocols of the Elders of Zion next?
I have to agree that not one drop of Gazan blood would have been shed had Hamas not initiated an inhuman terrorist attack on an innocent civilian population that drew no s distinction between men, women and children in Hamas's brutal display of savagery. Yet hardly a whisper of protest from the same people that are now screaming about Israel's attempt to insure Hamas never again is in a position to repeat Oct. 7 which they have sworn to do. Of course it is horrible to see innocent civilians killed or injured because of their unfortunate luck of having sworn terrorists as their government. men with not a hint of compassion for their own people by launching missile attacks from civilian areas, even from hospital ground where they hide. It is these men Gazans should be blaming. If they had been born a few miles away in Israel they wouldn't want to see Hamas rise again from the ashes. In fact they shouldn't want that anyway as after the next Oct 7 they will have to endure the same thing over again.
As far as the World Central Kitchen volunteers are concerned, it could have been a case of mistaken identity but it could have been pilots so blind with rage they were furious to see perhaps Hamas fighters mixed with civilians being fed by outsiders. Not that that makes it right if that was the case, but the kind compassionate hearts of the volunteers got them killed. It would be like in WWII Germany if during the allied fire bombing some of our people went into Germany to feed hungry civilians. Not all German civilians supported Hitler but many did. We don't know how many Gazan civilians support Hamas, Many cheered when the g hostages were being displayed after being captured and driven to their destination. .
The new type of bomb Julian describes sounds terrible, yet if used against real enemies does ensure innocent bystanders are not killed too.
The bomb used [if it was used] was an intentional act in my view. These were people in a dangerous zone trying to help innocent people. These cars were targeted and the cars were clearly marked. Israelis are masters of destroying individual targets. I must conclude it was an intentional act. Car after car was destroyed. One mistake is possible, but multiple mistakes sound like the US in Vietnam. It is possible the pilots were blinded by rage. In Vietnam, some chopper pilots killed innocent civilians and they were not blinded by rage. They liked to kill and count bodies. Even so, is that a reason to repeat these inhumane acts.
Yes, it does appear that way, a very sad situation. I saw the parents of the American/Canadian interviewed on CNN. He had a young wife and a two month old I think they said.
When a group like Hamas or leader of a country attacks another country they seem to forget that not only their own soldiers will be killed but civilians on both sides. but I guess they don't care. But then you have war crimes, murders like this.assuming it was deliberate. It takes great courage to go into a war zone when you don't have to be there. ..
'SERIOUS VIOLATION OF THE RELEVANT ORDERS AND INSTRUCTIONS'
IDF dismisses 2 senior officers over deadly drone strike on Gaza aid convoy
Attack on World Central Kitchen cars was against army regulations, probe finds; commanders believed Hamas gunman was in one car; WCK insists on independent probe
By EMANUEL FABIAN FOLLOW
www.timesofisrael.com/idf-dismisses-2-senior-officers-over-deadly-drone-strike-on-gaza-aid-convoy/
www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/04/05/israel-hamas-war-news-gaza-palestine/
Stop spreading the classic anti-Semitic propaganda, that line casts the leader of Israel as a "Nazi," the US Congress bought by Israeli money, an imaginary genocidal campaign waged against Palestinians (when of course it is HAMAS of Gaza, Palestine, who openly declare and glory in their stated goals of "wiping Israel off the map," and who murder dissenting Palestinians in Gaza!) and lies about this terrible tactical blunder and outright disobedience of the actual policies!
But you people are set in your ways, as a rule, and can't evolve your views in light to new information. Far worse is that others who are unwary fall for your propaganda.
Under Hamas these "senior officers" would fit right in, in fact, they would have had no contrary orders and rule to ignore! Targeting people feeding Israelis? Let's promote them!
L P Inness: I agree. Your heartfelt msg is such a contrast to the coldness of those who exclude from humanity nationalities and races not their own. …
Pls forgive OFF-TOPIC: I couldn't help but think of other messages you've posted here when I saw the Guardian headline "The fight for democracy / "‘You have imprisoned our democracy’: inside Republicans’ domination of Tennessee / "A year after the Covenant school shooting in Nashville – and a mass movement for gun control – Republicans have accelerated their attacks on democratic norms"
I doubt the piece contains anything that's new to you but, in case you didn't know, the whole world is watching:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/apr/05/tennessee-republicans-one-party-state
We are a captured state - and citizenry. I am a county election judge and there are reliably only a handful of voters who vote Democratic out of a little over 1000 registered voters in our precinct. When I moved here 35 years ago, this was a moderate state with a Dem governor and fairly equal number of moderate representatives. Everything in the article is true - and more. We have many fine colleges and a land grant university system that is reasonably priced and staffed with excellent instructors. Most of the graduates used to remain in TN and achieved success. Now, most leave. There is huge gap in income, housing, education; corporations move here for low wages and little regulation; drugs and gun violence are rampant; it's a republican fever dream and it will take generations to undo. I am a native of Fairfield county CT and am unused to being ruled by one party drunk on power. The beauty of my adopted state is breath-taking and the kindness and friendliness of the people here is legendary. We are the Volunteer state and no one ever hesitates to lend a hand. I wish the politics weren't so corrosive and citizens could thrive - then it would truly would be paradise. Thank you for bringing this article to my attention - it is an accurate synopsis of the conditions under which we live.
Israeli and Israelis do not have "hatred for another another people" as you claim. Israelis want to be left alone, to live well, live peaceably, to create, to love and raise their children and families. You should not be "ashamed to be an Anerican" but should instead be aghast and angry at a society which 1947 has repeatedly, unceasingly, waged war and sought to exterminate Israelis. From barely older than toddlers, Hamas teaches hatred, repeats blood levels and declares the virtue of murdering Jews. Those are the people and the values of which to be ashamed.
One of those Israelis murdered by Hamas terrorists on October 7th was an elderly woman, a Peace Now activist who lived in a nearby kibbutz, who weekly drove to Gaza to pick up Palestinians who needed medical care, and she would drive them to an Israeli hospital. Realign your outrage after you learn.
Their acts against the Palestinians has not been consistent with your lovely words. Forgive my doubts as I recall the words of James Baldwin, “I do not believe what you say because I see what you do.” paraphrasing, of course.
Netanyahu is a bully and fascist. He learned fascist lessons well and apparently has not remorse about the murder of innocent aid workers. The US should be ashamed for supplying weapons to Israel.
And you make no mention at all of Hamas, what are they, if not Islamo-fascist terrorists - STILL holding kidnapped hostages, still vowing to repeat "October 7 over and over," still having not elections since 2007, still murdering their internal opposition, still stealing humanitarian aid, etc.
Ya basta...
Yeah no, it was clearly a badly botched unintentional military strike ON THE WRONG TARGET.
Next.
I'd laugh were I not throwing up from disgust.
Proof that some people's mental gymnastics can justify anything no matter how gruesome.
Yeah no Kathy, here's short list of what I REFUSE to justify, and it's YOU who I think are willing to be hornswoggled by superficial thinking into justifying a practically endless list of gruesome outcomes and daily oppressions of Palestinians in Gaza (as well as the directly attacked Israeli victims), by default, for failing to see that Israel is destroying the genocidal terrorism from Hamas, Islamic Jihad in Palestine, the Al-Aqsa Brigades, and Hizbollah, btw. I will get to that after the list of what I refuse to justify.
(1) No justifying a "rush to judgment" that simply assumes this MUST have been an intentional atrocity by the IDF, when there's been no investigations concluded, much less any official court proceedings.
(2) No justifying wild claims that there are "over 30,000 Palestinian dead" yet NONE of them were armed Hamas terrorists, the latter are never mentioned, yet they make up about half of the total! So much for "indiscriminate bombing," the IDF policy has been to identify legitimate military targets, warn the civilians with phone and text messages and leaflets to leave the war zone, and thousands did just that.
(3) No justifying the Hamas war of aggressive genocide as seen on October 7, 2023, not when proportionally, had that been in the US, the death toll equates to 40,000 Americans in ONE DAY. Even 9/11 doesn't come close, although Al-Qaeda hoped to catch many more tens of thousands workers in the World Trade Center.
(4) No justifying meritless claims of "apartheid" or "genocide" againstIsrael, those are simply not based in fact, and leave out a lengthy campaign over decades of Palestinian terror attacks responsible for a great number of barriers, checkpoints and vetting, but Arab citizens of Israel have rights incomparably more robust than those possessed by Arabs in any other state in the region. Syria? Lebanon? Egypt? Libya? Sudan? Somalia? Saudi? The Gulf States? Iraq? and so it goes. Arabs serve in the Knesset, both men and women have human rights comparable to that of the Jewish majority. The "apartheid" claim is just a stupid, vicious smear. Ditto with "genocide," the Palestinian population growth alone shows how strange that charge is!
Meanwhile: What of the gruesome fate of Gazans living with no elections, no democracy, no political opposition, no free speech or free expression, horrendous oppression of women and lack of women's rights, no legitimate courts, no rule of law except the law of Hamas: brutal beatings and torture, prison or executions for Hamas opponents, the obvious upshot being that to the extent Israel does extirpate the Hamas terrorists who still rule Gaza with no elections since 2006/2007, a great civil space is opened for moderate Palestinians to rebuild and participate in building a Palestinian state. To the extent that you fail to support Israel's warfare goals of eliminating Hamas as far as possible, all of that will remain, and it's definitely gruesome.
https://www.danielpipes.org/22223/my-six-step-plan-for-a-two-state-solution?utm_source=Middle+East+Forum&utm_campaign=7fdcf49781-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2024_04_04_12_38&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_086cfd423c-7fdcf49781-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D&goal=0_086cfd423c-7fdcf49781-33654329&mc_cid=7fdcf49781&mc_eid=e9890ace88
Here's a plan for peace between the warring sides, a state for Palestinians without the oppression they suffer under Hamas or their slimy ilk. Neither the far right in Israel or the Islamo-fascists would support any of it, that's a good start in itself.
You are losing credibility. I am sorry, but you are.
LOL, compared to what, a troll like you?
The aid worker occupants of three separate vehicles, clearly identifiable, with prior notification to the IDF about their route and purpose, murdered. This is completely unacceptable. The cost in innocent lives of the attack on Gaza is far beyond “proportional.” The US absolutely MUST stop supporting Nartanyahu’s war unconditionally.
Not on my watch.
NO no no, clearly that points to a tragic miscommunication within the Israeli military.
About the very last thing they would want to do is intentionally target the aid trucks, KNOWING they are such.
Intent is beside the point, the fact that they were killed with precision US provided weapons is unacceptable. The fact that they were killed at all is unacceptable. The fact that they had to be in Gaza in a meager attempt to stave off famine is unacceptable. The destruction of Gaza and its residents is unacceptable.
I stop reading for cogent legal, ethical, moral or any relevant content regarding the acts of adult human beings when the preposterous statement that "Intent is beside the point" about an act of war is mooted.
All you have is pointing out that Hamas and its war of genocide and the obvious consequences are "unacceptable," no kidding? What is the point of that posturing, when they began the war, continued the war, continue to hold kidnapped hostages, and continue to swear they will try for "October 7 massacres of Jews over and over again"?
"Hitler's intent was beside the point..." "The intent of aiming the gun at the guy with the machine gun threatening to blow up his hostages with the bomb to which he held the detonator is beside the point!"
Intent ALWAYS comes into play in wars - and the most quotidian examples of possible assault and battery, Ted. Just stop, you're effectively enabling the Hamas genocidal terrorists to appear morally equivalent to their victims! Talk about despicable and unacceptable...
You cannot be serious, this has to be a knee jerk response you will regret once you reconsider the impossibility, the sheer incoherence, of trying to apply this fairly and nonviolently within a framework of universal human rights.
This can't allow for mass murderers (Hamas) to hide behind human shields (Gazan civilians) and evade all attempts to make them cease and desist from murdering civilians (Israelis and other civilians) can it?
That cannot possibly be your proffered "morally good and reasonable" theory!
You missed my point entirely. You were excusing the killing of the aid workers as a justifiable cost of war, implying that it was unintended and a mistake.
My point is that the suffering of 2.2 million people in Gaza is too much. Those 2.2 million people are not complicit in nor responsible for the attacks on Israel. Yet they are the people paying the price.
You are claiming that Israel has no choice in how they respond. That the destruction of Gaza, including those 2.2 million people if that’s what it takes, is the only option Israel has to destroy Hamas.
You and Netanyahu are wrong. There are alternatives. Violence in response to violence is a choice, but never the only choice.
NO, no, no,. of COURSE I don't "justify their deaths," where did I say the attack was justified at all? Explain that first, because CLEARLY the two concepts are not connected in the way you think they are: The UNINTENTIONAL, mistaken killing of innocents cannot possibly "justify" the killings, from what legal or moral or ethical theory have you ever extracted that?!
No, it WOULD however, excuse the agents of their demise from being rightly held accountable for murder in a legal sense, i.e. a form of criminal homicide that is First Degree or Second degree - these hypothetical Israelis might very well turn out to to meet the standard legal test for "reckless manslaughter," but that's not the same thing.
Then you essentially agree with me: Hamas is embedded in the civilian possibility and making the civilians pay the price. They are being used as human shields.
Does it actually come as news to you, some kind of "revelation," that any army that advances in battle with human shields cannot possibly hope to avoid being shot at by the army
-or police or ad hoc civilian gunmen, or with crossbows, catapults, boiling oil from the fortress walls, you name it - and thus be licensed by international law to murder people as they see fit?
Then you just put words in my mouth, old debating trick / fallacy, of course I didn't say that the "2.2. million Gazans" would be destroyed "if necessary," no, of course not, and I can't help but notice the staggering hyperbole - there have been something like 15-17 thousand terrorists killed, and around the same number of civilians, that's a long ways from 2 million!
What Hamas had done and would like to do is bad enough without hysterical exaggerations, Hamas needs to be pressured from all sides to stop, release ALL the hostages with no cute pre-conditions, and allow food in without shooting at the delivery trucks and the IDF guarding the trucks, the hired security forces, and stop stealing the food and medicine!
You close with a silly bromide, that "Violence in response to violence is never the only choice," "Not even Jesus would allow his face to be slapped three times," is my response - and to point out that YOU are not responsible for protecting the Israeli population from the Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists, who have launched over 15, 000 missiles, mortars, and drone strikes at Israel's civilians SINCE October 7.
I would think some admission of humility in the face of that is called for, not "You shouldn't defend yourselves violently! Do something else!"
You refuse to see the point I am making. Perhaps an imperfect analogy: If the Tijuana drug cartel began violent terrorist attacks on civilians in San Diego, and they were embedded among the civilians in Mexico, using them as human shields, would it be acceptable for the US military to bomb Tijuana with tens of thousands of civilians killed as collateral damage? Then to ensure the drug cartel doesn’t re supply themselves, place an aid embargo on Tijuana to the point of famine to its residents?
And I don’t remember that part in the gospels, “turn the other cheek unless you are slapped a third time”
My thoughts are that you should represent trump. Is, "I may be wrong" in your sack of pontification?
:-)
oh yes, the LAST thing Israel would do...they didn't think there would be women, children, old people, noncombatants in all those buildings they obliterated? PLEASE, I've just read through your constant refrain on behalf of Israel. This Jew doesn't buy it. The right wing has taken over the government/military and are doing all they can to wipe others off the earth. It reminds me too painfully of why my family was always opposed to the creation of Israel.
Totally agree with you, Nance. Well said.
Hard to believe that the Israeli soldier who pressed the send button on those rockets didn’t know exactly what the target was. Miscommunication? Misidentified target? Fired by a rogue Israeli missile operated? It doesn’t really matter at this point.
They knew what their target was. They probably heard that Hamas was using one of the cars as cover. Miscommunication with a very sad result. What a horrible, horrible weapon.
"Hard to believe" you reflexively believe that:
www.timesofisrael.com/idf-dismisses-2-senior-officers-over-deadly-drone-strike-on-gaza-aid-convoy/
SECOND AND THIRD VEHICLES WERE ATTACKED 'FOR NO REAL REASON'
‘Serious failure’: IDF fires 2 top officers over deadly drone strike on Gaza aid convoy
Attack on World Central Kitchen cars was carried out in grave violation of orders, probe finds; commanders believed Hamas gunman was in one car; WCK insists on independent probe
By EMANUEL FABIAN FOLLOW
(more)....
With a weapon this sophisticated it takes a huge leap of faith to accept an explanation that it was a "tragic miscommunication" on the part of the Israeli military. Biden made it very clear today that the U.S, is running out of patience with Netanyahu and his policies killing civilians.
Btw - what on earth is the role of HAMAS in this? The mass media has been citing the systematically misleading "over 30,000 Palestinian dead" for several months, conflating all the over 15,000 Hamas terrorists into the total, I get that, we accept figures and estimates from Hamas later proven bogus - "Over 70% women and children," no, it's BAD ENOUGH without Hamas lying about the casualty toll consequences of using their human shields.
Bookmark this website and read it for ONE WEEK to begin to realize just how tendentious, selective, distorted, and laughably biased much of the mass media " journalism" has been on this.
Lucian sticks to facts, reasonable inferences, sound humanistic cautions and warnings about overreaching by the Israelis - they don't accept those sound standards.
Yes Netanyahu is terrible, no, that does not ipso facto make this "genocide," etc.
https://camera-uk.org/2024/04/04/bbc-news-whitewashes-un-rights-expert-behind-genocide-accusations/
GIGO, the sophistication of the weapon's targeting parameter tech thrown awry from the jump by mistaken intel / identifications of useful legit targets, and THEN the lethality and precise targeting makes the initial mistakes especially deadly, no room for the initial blunders to be recalibrated by some "built-in" abort mission redundancies?
Tragic miscommunication? You are not serious surely?
Oh that never happens in the fog of war, at night, with terrorists running around and embedded in the civilians in their thousands. Hell, no one dies from "friendly fire," and Hamas and Islamic Jihad in Palestine missiles and mortars ALWAYS launch clear of Gaza, they NEVER blow up on the launch platform, never fall short and kill dozens of Palestinians, never happens!
(Actually it's 15% -20% failures and Palestinian citizens in Gaza pay the price).
Ok, have it your way, but launching these things is not a matter of siting in on a vehicle and being sure (from a great distance) you have the correct coordinates, or didn't fail to be read in on the "agreed upon routes" with the people arranging this food aid mission.
I think it's YOU who cannot be serious.
:-)
I disagree now knowing how much has been spent buying influence in our government. This was not a tragic miscommunication. I have seen multiple tragic miscommunications in Vietnam and they were intentional act covered up. Stop the revision of history. This is not the Alamo.
Word salad, really? This JUST HAPPENED DAYS AGO in a "hot war zone." We will see what the investigations uncover, probably some unconscionable recklessness and stupid mix-ups on who was "read in" to the World Kitchen info, at the very least.
But the people leaping to accuse some unnamed IDF members of intentionally targeting them, knowing who they were, are absurd and disgusting.
I just want to vomit. These humanitarians were the best of mankind..really good people. Israel is so cavalier about this. Stop arming them.
Amen. I am reminded of Lil Bush's emotional response to 9/11, i.e., invading Iraq.
Cavalier? Are you kidding, there is a massive investigation underway and, unlike Hamas, Israel doesn't intentionally target civilians hoping to kill as many as possible, and promise to never, ever stop doing it!
To be taken seriously any investigation must be conducted by a totally independent entity.
Yeah nice try, by the nature of things the Israelis and the USA appointed people who actually new something about the relevant events and didn't turn up the results you wanted, so that MUST mean they were not "independent" enough!
It's a canard, even so , no matter what kind of excuses you people have for denying it was a terrible set of mistakes in the "fog of war," the Israelis expected to see an Egyptian vessel and NOT what was actually there, you can't accept that but too bad, it's the consensus conclusion of numerous investigations. In a "hot war zone," happens in every war that extensive and intense, probably happened this last month in Ukraine, albeit on land!
I spent many hours reading about the infamous "Friendly Fire" incident involving the soldier from northern Iowa,* that also was unintentional. ******
"The tragic attack on the USS Liberty during the Six-Day War provoked a great deal of controversy and anger. The incident was the subject of ten U.S. investigations and three more by Israel. Though some accusations have suggested the American reports sought to hide facts or protect Israel, no credible evidence for these charges has ever been produced.
Here is a summary of the investigations and their conclusions:...." Read the results and learn something:
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/investigations-of-the-liberty-tragedy
*https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/672464
Chronicles the 1970 Vietnam death of Michael Mullen, his Iowan parents' outspoken opposition to the war and efforts to uncover the true circumstances of Michael's death, and the resulting governmental hostility and FBI surveillance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peg_Mullen
Margaret Ellen Mullen (née Goodyear; June 11, 1917 – October 2, 2009) was an American antiwar activist who was motivated to protest after her son was killed in Vietnam by shrapnel fired from friendly artillery in 1970. She became an active opponent of U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War and protested against the Gulf War and Iraq War. Her life story was made into the Emmy Award-winning 1979 film Friendly Fire starring Carol Burnett, which was based on a 1976 book of the same name by C. D. B. Bryan.
:-)
This is one example. There were others. Perhaps cavalier was poor choice of words. I heard “this is war” among other responses. There have been other horrific instances. Realize Israel has always fought for their right to exist. Unfortunately right wing zealots seem to be running the show.
Well, "this is war" comes close to summing up how horrible mistakes with these deadly missiles can be inevitable, so there's that.
Do have ANY IDEA how many missions and missiles, mortars, semi-auto rifles, and drones and tank ammo is, or are, being expended?
This is thousand of Hamas terrorists, a population over two million, and the terrorists hide in the civilian infrastructure, illegally, using them as "human shields"!
It's been described as being more like "human sacrifices."
Yeah the right-wing zealots in Israel, and the Islamo-fascists in Hamas, what a mess, but the Israelis go to extraordinary lengths no other modern army does to avoid civilian casualties, FACT.
The Hamas terrorists, are you kidding? They would exult if they could wipe out ONE MILLION Israelis, and want more!
Do the research, it's not that difficult.
Do you really believe what you are saying? You are an attorney after all.
Go ahead cite a specific argument, troll - and as I was educated in the law, have the doctorate, and in philosophy, I can defend my views.
The fact is you confine yourself to vague statements because when you turn to specifics, it's the standard bigotry, not reasoned criticism of Israeli policies.
So while you may believe all sorts of inane nonsense about the rights of the State of Israel and of Jews to have a national state, just as the Palestinians have that right if they can ever get themselves organized and ready to stop trying to be an Arab version of North Korea, no one cares - least of all me. It's been adjudicated and the State of Israel is going to survive this - the elections will hopefully expel Netanyahu, and someone else can deal with Hamas, Hizbollah, the Al-Aqsa Mosque Brigade, Islamic Jihad in Palestine, and Fatah.
At some point the US has got to act right? This can't go on right?
No, Hamas has to act, they can end the war TOMORROW, starting by releasing the hostages they kidnapped.
Next, they agree to stop fighting if Israel stops fighting, and disarms if Israel disarms from any military at standby and on the alert on their borders. Ceasefire in place and more food and medicine arrives, along with new housing and construction.
Then they demand that Israel's military, the IDF, subject themselves to war crimes investigations, and they will do the same! And encourage the Islamic Jihad in Palestine and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade to agree, too.
The killing of 30,000 Palestinians has not influenced Hamas to release the hostages or to negotiate for peace. They are terrorists. Destroying Gaza and murdering innocent civilians, most of them women and children, will not destroy Hamas. The civilians killed are the victims here, and you are blaming them for the actions of Hamas. And now they are at the point of starvation. Is that an acceptable cost? How many civilian deaths are acceptable?
They are NOT "most of them women and children," that's Hamas propaganda figures and debunked. Bad enough without the hyperbole, spare us that at least.
These grotesquely absurd rhetorical demands SHOULD RIGHTLY BE POSED TO HAMAS, sheesh, this is bizarro world quasi-amoral illogic run wild again, just like the bit where you were inadvertently foreclosing a violent shutdown of a child beating fiend, parent or not, by trying to weasel out of the wisdom summed up in the observation that "Not even Jesus would allow his face to be slapped three times," it's absurd.
Unfortunately, when a violent criminal evinces a settled disposition to prey upon and bully victims, at some point FORCE, even up to deadly force in self-defense and/or the defense of others, is legit, lawful, morally good, ethically sound, universalizable as a Kantian "Categorial Imperative," and it may be horrific as hell in the event, but there it is.
The law and sound ethics and morals also insists on trying to avoid this resort if possible, to retreat (albeit not within one's own home or residence),
to "de-escalate," when possible, to use proportional force, not shoot up the whole homestead and certainly not go after the perp's family, not start Hatfield /McCoy Law of the Old West feuds, none of that. It's terrible enough without going bonkers with it. Gang wars, etc.
STOP!!!
Nice plan sir, but I think we can assume both Netanyahu, Hamas and Secretary Blinken have already considered and rejected those ideas. At this point the United States is becoming complicit in this genocide of innocent Palestinians and we must reconsider our military weapons support demand a cease fire so medical aid and food can be safely transported to Gaza.
Don't you think the hostages are long dead? I certainly think so.
??? No way that Hamas would have allowed the deaths of over a hundred key "bargaining chips"!
They hope to trade them for over a thousand Palestinian prisoners, i.e., as many ruthless, hardened, borderline psycho "suicide bombers" as possible! And other less fanatical worthies, yes, those too.
:-)
There is no assurance Israel will act in good faith if the hostages are released. Would you release them if you had had a miscommunication, then the response was killing every Arab in sight without thought? Get serious. Even an attorney has to have a rational thought every now and then.
As per Ben Ferencz: LAW / NOT WAR
Horrific death. Chef Andreas minced no words in his video reaction. This should have been resolved a long time ago. Thank you Lucian.
Oh, Lucian, you've just broken my heart (again) and I have to get my spiritual super glue out of the drawer. The R9X is yet another example of the chasm between cleverness and wisdom.
What a horrific weapon. I get why it was designed. I get why the U.S. has used it only a handful of times with very careful targeting, to kill known terror masterminds. Looked at abstractly, it's a highly accurate way to kill all occupants of a vehicle without harming anyone nearby. Nevertheless, it's completely horrifying. That Israel struck the very clearly roof-marked car of a team of humanitarian workers, from an aid organization that coordinated elaborately with the IDF to inform them in minute detail of the location of their people, and who informed the IDF of this specific route and times in advance, is not comprehensible as a "mistake".
Spot on. Can assure you precision weapons/ord was not driven by the MIC rather by those in or retired from the mil who understand the full effects of war. Emphasis full effects. So when you read or hear the Dinosaur speak about overwhelming firepower and lethality (not going to mention names) they reveal their own ignorance of the totality of war and fall into the bucket that invoke some version of chit happens in war.
Have said this before, the effect of being in a US Service Academy and to a lesser degree colleges and institutions such as VMI, VT etc result in reshaping underdeveloped brain's away from what matters most in war, retaining one's humanity. They see war as numbers, statistics and probability absent what makes us hooman.
Of course there are exceptions. Lucian being one. Is more remarkable given his upbringing. So, while some can say Lucian does bring up war porn now and then he never fails to add context and perspective you will not find in most service academy grads never mind one with an illustrious family history in the US Mil. Oh, WTF do I know, am a mere merciless indian savage.
Thank you, ~Shadowcloud~, for so many insights. Certainly we have some leaders who appear to know nothing about war. (I know next to nothing about war myself, but try to bend my learning toward the humanity side.) That anyone - let alone the "leader of the free world", would say "How come we have nuclear weapons if we can't use them? Why can't we use them"? [not a verbatim quote] is deeply shameful and deeply ignorant.
Lucian is exceptional in many ways, I agree. And his knowledge and perspectives are especially remarkable given his heritage, upbringing, and education. If you haven't already, I highly recommend reading his novel about life at West Point," Dress Gray". It is both an absorbing murder mystery and a fascinating and extraordinarily revealing exposé on life in that military training environment, and as you say, how it shapes young minds, or in some cases repels or destroys them.
Finally, I realize you refer to yourself as a "merciless indian savage" ironically, as a reference to the brutal blindness of early immigrants, some of them my ancestors, toward America's first people. The journal "Of Plimouth Plantation", written by Pilgrim William Bradford, documented the first 30 years of the settlement. (https://www.mass.gov/info-details/bradfords-manuscript-of-plimoth-plantation)
The Pilgrims' treatment of the Narragansett and the Pequot was far darker and more violent than the sanitized, happy vision of Pilgrims and First People sharing corn and venison around a big table that was still presented to every American schoolchild when I was young.
My people have a long, long way to go to atone, and to stop oppressing in the present. Some of my mother's relations by marriage descend directly from one of the people who came on the Mayflower, and some of them still live in Plymouth, Mass. four centuries later. They are good humanitarians in this generation but the heritage is still there, inherited by all of us who inherit the results. The past is never over. It isn't even past.
Exemplary commentary which is expected from Massachusettians. head bows in ~respect~.
Yes, am familiar w/Lucian's books, articles, Op-Eds, and his life story and that of his ancestors. First walked the same path after Lucian's NYT piece on P4 aka David Petraeus. Much like he did WABAC at the USMA he stood tall and stood alone against the onslaught of what is come to be known as haters. Am not a fan of unfair fights no matter how they manifest so waded into the fray to give Lucian time to breathe, then be ready for more attacks that he treated much like a fencing master. (liv fencing terms since all my seeds fenced). And there are times when Lucian speaks about war porn I good naturedly invoke his ancestor Thomas Jefferson memorable DOI line of merciless indian savages. In a way it is also a shout out and compliment to Lucian for being far more enlightened than his slaver and slave raper ancestor.
Narragansett and the Pequot: My eyes wet due to being familiar with their history as well as other ~people~ in what is now New England. None other than Roger Williams stole their words then designated them loaner words, Now there seems to be more spoken in the American language than by what remains of both ~people~. ( A slight exaggeration 4effect).
And you're right about both war and in peace, humanity is the linchpin/keystone to both. A nation or its people can be at peace yet act inhumanely. The inverse happens in war zones where one witnesses acts of humanity that defy comprehension.
Lots of "war" flics have been made. From my perspective and mine alone The Flowers of War best captures the breadth and depth of war along with its many confluences. There is a trailer fir it on IMDB:: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1410063/. It's very different than how Hollywood long has treated war. Is at least rates as1/2 box of Kleenex brand tissue. And as is the case with the best flics the trailer doesn't do it justice. Me-thinks you can handle it if you are interested. The Flowers of War are definitely not for everyone.
"The past is never over. It isn't even past." ~Poetry~
As am fond of saying "~never forget~ is the only path to never again" Doesn't rise to your poetry after all am a merciless indian savage hence MUST be under or uneducated and of course can't read or write. Suppose that leaves us with only grunts nd groans (as some have depicted our 1000 plus tongues here on Turtle Island. And a reminder in the journal of the Mayflower dose Pilgrims noted and marveled that Squanto spoke the Queen's English.
Apologies for any typos my kind is better sending smoke as words than sending letters on a keyboard!!!!
Thank you again for this conversation. Btw, I should have given the citation for that quote. In a 1988 Washington Post article that my search turned up, about Strom Thurmond of all people, it is attributed to William Faulkner:
“The past is never over. It isn't even past.”
- William Faulkner, "Intruder in the Dust"
So the quotation is inextricably linked to racism.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1988/11/02/uncle-strom-the-pragmatists-legacy/80bb7a1f-5412-4dff-a7c2-3e68a3fb51f5/
Yes, was excellent discourse, am grateful.
PS The Flowers of War is meant for wimmin more so then for men.
Squanto's storytell is even better in the native tongue.
PPS. Do I recall that Squanto spoke the Queen’s English because he had been brought to London by [traders?] and paraded as a sort of drawing room curiousity beforereturning to Plymouth to find his village decimated by white people’s diseases, before the Pilgrims arrived?
I am a huge supporter of Israel and have travelled there. based on Lucian’s expert analysis of the this attack on innocent aid workers I am beyond sad, frustrated and angry. I was on active duty as a draftee with in the U.S. Army when the My Lai massacre occurred in Vietnam(1969) and then the Kent State shooting of innocent American students by military personnel(1970).
I can understand Israel’s need to protect itself and even for retaliation but what they are conducting in Gaza now is pure punishment. They can never kill every Hamas fighter and if they did others would take their place.
I am reminded of my favorite anti war movie “King Of Hearts” from 1966 starring Alan Bates. I highly recommend this poignant film the moral of which asks the question; who are the insane? the mental patients or the armies of the world.
No, it is not now "pure punishment," not based on what looks like a massive internal communications breakdown, anyway.
Your statement, Mr. Turnbull, is known as a false equivalency.
Mr. Turnbull, you’re giving me a migraine.
Still no explanation? WHAT is the supposed "false equivalency" and why is it even a proposed "equivalency," and why is it "false"?
And you can't possible blame migraines on someone posting views you find difficult to refute with hand waving, if it's that problematic - just ignore my posts, I can't comprehend why you or anyone else believes that clarifying my OWN views isn't intrinsically valuable, just as I would hope you adopt the same perspective on your own thinking about difficult moral and ethical issues!
Wrong. You need to explain your paralogical procedure so I can refute it - as it is, you claim floats untethered in a kind of N-dimensional semantic space, of course.
Do you see now?
What parts of the statement instantiate the alleged "false equivalency"?
This is known as "showing your work," anyone can simply read a passage of didactic text, and claim this or that unsound procedure characterizes it.
Clear? Now I am back to monitoring the CNN and MSNBC and other coverage of the I/P
disputes, as well as the funding of Hamas via "humanitarian" entities, and other strange connections between news sources relied on by the BBC World News and terrorists:
https://camera-uk.org/2024/04/05/a-bbc-quoted-ngo-and-a-big-question/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=es
*******
Given the BBC’s record of quoting and promoting Al Mezan itself as well as the casualty figures to which it contributes, the question of how that NGO’s notepaper arrived in the hands of PIJ terrorists holding hostages is surely one that should be of interest to a department set up in order to “build trust with audiences by transparently showing how BBC journalists know the information they are reporting”.
Related Articles:
THE BBC’S JANUS-FACED APPROACH TO THE ISSUE OF CASUALTIES IN GAZA
VITAL STATISTICS: STEALTH CHANGES MADE TO THE BBC’S GAZA CASUALTY FIGURES ARTICLE
BBC WATCH UNCOVERS THE SOURCES OF JEREMY BOWEN’S CITED CASUALTY FIGURES
Why are you so defensive?
Why are you so passive-aggressive?
See how that works? I could see immediately that the righteous outrage at the Global World Kitchen strike (which of cause I share) was leading to wild-eyed anti-Israel distortions from people like, well, you. Ergo, I just counseled against "rush to judgments" and emphasized just how sordid and horrific TO ITS OWN CIVILIANS IN GAZA the Hamas terrorists have been, to the point where they have forced Israel to inspect each and every food and humanitarian aid convoy for smuggled weapons!
And that's the least of it.
https://www.meforum.org/65747/my-six-step-plan-for-a-two-state-solution
^^^^^ THIS is what we need to overcome, as in: {EXCERPT - read the entire text!}
"Beyond that agreement, an eventual Palestinian state has become inevitable. True, a century ago, "Palestinians" meant Jews, not Arabs; but Palestinian Arabs do today constitute a people. Pretending otherwise smacks of futility. True also that reestablishing Jordanian and Egyptian rule in the West Bank and Gaza from 60 years ago is a more attractive alternative than a two-state solution; but both Amman and Cairo vehemently rebuff this idea. Israel ruling all of those territories protracts one of the world's most vicious and lengthy conflicts. So, Palestine it is.
But what sort of Palestine? There lies the second area of agreement between Washington and Jerusalem. Each accepted it on condition of a complete overhaul of Palestinian conduct. Each posited three prerequisites. Bush offered "American support for the creation of a provisional state of Palestine ... if Palestinians embrace democracy, confront corruption and firmly reject terror." Netanyahu itemized Israel's conditions as a "guarantee regarding demilitarization and Israel's security needs," plus recognition of Israel "as the State of the Jewish people."
{The Palestine Orchestra was a Jewish institution in 1936-37. -Graphic of concert
pamphlet}
Together, these demands – which remain as central today as when first expressed – require a transformation of Palestinian attitudes and actions. (Still, they remain partial and other demands should be added; an end to PA vilification of Israel, recognition of Jerusalem as its capital, and a full normalization of relations.)
Unfortunately, those six conditions have virtually disappeared from the collective memory. Forgetting them, the United States and Israel engage in a useless "yes or no to Palestine?" argument. With them, the two governments can engage in a pragmatic and constructive "has the PA met the prerequisites?" discussion.
The PA, which turns 30 next month, has an extensive record on which to be judged. Here's a summary assessment on each of those six U.S.-Israeli requirements:
Establish democracy: PA leader Mahmoud Abbas is in the 20th year of his 4-year term and spurns even the rigged elections typical of tyrants pretending to be democratic.
Reduce corruption: Ghaith al-Omari, a former advisor to Abbas, finds that "a staggering 87 percent of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza believe that the PA is corrupt."
Reject terror: The PA brazenly celebrates the murder of Israelis. For example, a televised sermon declared that "All weapons must be aimed at the Jews." It also bragged about its role on Oct. 7.
Demilitarize: The PA has over 83,000 security personnel on which it spends one-third of its budget, making it (along with Hamas) the most militarized society in the world. (Only North Korea matches that percentage.)
Guarantee Israel's security needs: The PA last year endorsed an intent "to blow up all of the Zionist entity's cities."
Recognize Israel as the Jewish state: Abbas adamantly rejects this, taunting Israelis: "You can call yourselves whatever you want, but I will not accept it."
As the PA fails every joint-U.S.-Israel condition, Washington and Jerusalem have their work cut out. Time to end their useless squabble and focus on getting Abbas and his regime to fulfill those common-sense requirements, for example by reducing the PA's hyper-militarization. Accordingly, some humble advice to each government.
Jerusalem: Stop re-litigating what you already conceded. Direct Biden's attention to the six unfulfilled conditions. Insist that they be accomplished to your – and not the Americans' – satisfaction.
Washington: Stop ignoring that the PA has made none of the requisite changes. Put the onus of change on Palestinians. Challenge them to prove worthy of a sovereign state." {MORE}
It's more that I think you're an idiot and a bigoted troll, there's a difference. You have contributed nothing but some stale anti-Semitic tropes and hand waving complaints about - well, something. Nothing substantive - you have no solutions to offer as far as dealing with the Hamas terrorists, for example.
I wonder why? Likely it's because you fit the profile described here:
https://camera-uk.org/2024/02/06/can-there-be-a-decent-pro-palestinian-left/
For many years I have refused to participate in conversations about Israel, the Palestinians, Hamas, the PLA, Hezbollah, or whomever, including the US role, because they always devolve into who-is-the-bigger-monster. The whole situation in the ME is, of course, monstrous in the first instance. It is easier, at least for me, to decide who is making it worse, and who, if there are such entities, is trying to make it better. All those calling for an immediate ceasefire, and providing humanitarian aid, despite great danger, are in the latter category, except for the US. My anger at the Biden administration for trying to have it both ways, a leg in both camps so-to-speak, is reaching a boiling point. Calling for a ceasefire, finally, while continuing to arm one side is the height of hypocrisy, and absolutely atrocious. I understand, up to a point, the diplomatic delicacy of taking a very hard line with Israel, read arrogant war criminal Yahoo, which becomes more necessary by the day, but how are we not making matters worse with our dithering. We cannot look for praise for being peacemakers while still providing the means for making war. It is that simple, although many will disagree with me. Well, I don’t care.
It’s hard for me to think this, much less write it: was this attack deliberate?
It was absolutely deliberate. No question. The car was clearly labeled, and WCK had coordinated the route with the IDF. They bombed the car, then survivors got out and crawled into another car. They bombed that car. Then any survivors crawled into another car. They bombed that. Until they were all dead. This by Jose Andres is beautiful -- https://www.ynetnews.com/article/h1d8xgck0
By deliberate I meant a decision made by higher ranks than the drone operator. I have a twisted imagination that can conjure up motivations ad nauseum. But this….it doesn’t obviously support the right or left in Israel. The only direct benefit is to Hamas and Islamic terrorism. Indirectly this attack will motivate the left in the states to call for an arms embargo and a political push on Netanyahu to stop the war. So I’m left with this: Who Benefits? A faction in Israel? The left in the US? Hamas? My money is on Hamas. But how? And here is where I start to feel unease.
Netanyahu or someone close to him made this happen. They are trying to starve or otherwise kill Palestinians, and/or get them out of Palestine, so that they can take over Gaza and build Israeli settlements there.
US has been "threatening to withdraw support" for long enough, I don't think Netanyahu has ever been very worried about that.
Here's just one of many sources https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6259/New-Report:-Killing-starving-Palestinians,-targeting-aid-trucks-is-a-deliberate-Israeli-policy-to-reinforce-famine-in-the-Gaza-Strip
Yes. The Israelis know our politics better than we do. It was intentional with thoughts that it would get trump elected. Bibi knows he can manipulate trump as he can smell a loser when he sees on. All these world bullies know trump is a pushover.
Oh, lord! You just put a horrid thought into my head, Israel! I know Netanyahu is devious, fascist, power hungry, but for the re-election of trump?
There were no survivors. They were turned into mince.
That ghastly weapon. How did Israel get that weapon? Hum....
Reports from the ground said that there weren't any survivors after they bombed all three cars... https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-02/ty-article-live/alleged-israeli-strike-kills-several-world-central-kitchen-aid-workers-in-gaza/0000018e-9c9b-dfd2-afce-dcffeac70000?utm_source=mailchimp&utm_medium=Content&utm_campaign=daily-brief&utm_content=762ae0336e
That's obvious - the question is WHY whoever deliberated, intentionally fired the weapon, misidentified the target.
This statement by World Central Kitchen founder Jose Andres has given me cause to believe so. https://youtu.be/ddoBO4KToSw
??? Are you serious? They clearly attacked the target by mistake.
Is bring up the USS Liberty canard next?
Richard, I was a Navy officer when Israel deliberately attacked the USS Liberty in 1967, murdering over 30 crew and wounding well over 100. They attacked for over an hour, by land and sea.
The lack of protective response by the USN is something I consider the most disgraceful conduct in USN history. Please don't call it a "canard". It was an LBJ disgrace, too.
Bravo, Rich.
Agree. The entire USS Liberty Affair is shameful and requires the suspension of all disbelief to claim it was a canard.
Richard doesn't understand weapons and ord, whether today's or yesteryears. Unless there is a weapon or ord malfunction an attack on a target is intentional. And applies 100fold to today's precision weapons and ord that have guidance systems/comm enabling the strike to target be called off or diverted to a safe zone.
Furthermore Richard of all people should know the rule, nevah evah defned the indefensible unless one is being compensated for doing so. The second part of that rule includes nevah evah blame someone else /some other party or attempt to rationalize the irrational or absurd.
IDF/WCK attack: Since there is general agreement on the weapon system-a drone- and the weapon-R9X*- the spacing in time and in distance make sense. The drone fired then flew past and returned to acquired the 2nd target, then flew past, returned and acquired the 3rd.
*R9X: appears to be the 5th time this weapon has been used, 2017 Sy, 2019 Yemen, 2020 Sy and Baghdad Ir in Feb of this year (the IRG). Although most pics/vids showed the vehicle in flames once the fire was extinguished there is no tell tale signature that comes with an explosive device. So, a fire, not a blast.
Only barbarians would support the package of tactics Israel is using against Gaza. Those tactics extend far beyond weapons/ord to denying water, food, and medicine to innocent civs. There is no doubt 7Oct was a barbaric massacre however that involved a single day. Somewhere in Gaza they must endure a different kind and different degree of barbarism 24/7 x 6mos and counting. Is highly improbable the orders to exact revenge haven't been issued from Bibi' and his government behind the pretext of we are only seeking to destroy Hamas.
FTR: I don't but the Gazan rpts on civs killed or wounded nor on their rpts of fighters KIA/WIA. On a daily basis and in aggregate they reveal the same ratio w/o change. That is one thing in war that doesn't happen. EVAH.
Right.
Another thing about the USS Liberty murderous attack. Years later one of the senior attack pilots admitted the numerous attacks were deliberate. He was ashamed of it, as the Liberty was defenseless. BTW, Israel, years later, paid millions to make amends. Too late for anybody, and I've never trusted Israel since.
BTW, I still think the CO, Sixth Fleet, should have been court martialed.
(1) Many don't understand the courage it took for those involved to speak truth to power including those who were still in uniform.
(2) Agree on your list of who shoulda' been disciplined. The USN did learn from their lack of accountability back then to where they are now.
(3) Many don't understand how living with guilt destroys the mind, the body, and the soul. One becomes captive to guilt as much like a free (the only wild animal is a hooman) animal is captive in a fuckin zoo.
I raise that because NBC Tom Brokaw's singularly anointed the WW Gen as the greatest GEN evah partly due to the high number of vets who nevah evah would talk about what they did. There are many reasons not to talk about combat, he didn't give thought that two are shame and guilt. And for fuq's sake there is no such thing as the greatest GEN only a GEN that does less harm than other GENs.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/investigations-of-the-liberty-tragedy
There was NO "deliberate attack" on what they identified as a US ship, that was the conclusion of the investigations:
"The tragic attack on the USS Liberty during the Six-Day War provoked a great deal of controversy and anger. The incident was the subject of ten U.S. investigations and three more by Israel. Though some accusations have suggested the American reports sought to hide facts or protect Israel, no credible evidence for these charges has ever been produced.
Here is a summary of the investigations and their conclusions: ...."
- Go ahead, read the results.
Richard, I know you know more than I do about a lot of things, but I wish you would really study the USS Liberty affair, There are other books, but try this one:
The Attack on the Liberty: The Untold Story of Israel's Deadly 1967 Assault on a U.S. Spy Ship
by James M. Scott | Jul 6, 2010
The Boy Who Cried Wolf
Calling that attack a "canard" insults the memory of every innocent victim. The U.S. has been a faithful ally to Israel since its founding. Reciprocity has been circumstantial..
"The tragic attack on the USS Liberty during the Six-Day War provoked a great deal of controversy and anger. The incident was the subject of ten U.S. investigations and three more by Israel. Though some accusations have suggested the American reports sought to hide facts or protect Israel, no credible evidence for these charges has ever been produced.
Here is a summary of the investigations and their conclusions: ....."
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/investigations-of-the-liberty-tragedy
The USS Liberty was flying a U.S. flag sailing in international waters and had identifying markings on it’s hull. It admittedly was a spy ship that was not in Israel’s best interest. Although most of the United States investigation remains classified Secretary of State Dean Rusk said at the time of the attack and again in 1990 before he died that he believed the attack was intentional.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/investigations-of-the-liberty-tragedy
That's his opinion, it's not what the investigations (there were a number of US investigations)
concluded - the Israelis mistook it for an Egyptian vessel, were reckless, yes, not the same thing as realizing it WAS a US ship, though.
It was intentional. I do appreciate your passion, however.
What?? How does that "insult" any victims, explain that, it's completely ludicrous - I literally have NO IDEA what you are talking about.
The "genocide" charge is TOTAL NONSENSE, got it?
"On Friday, Israel focused on the brutality of the Oct. 7 attacks, presenting chilling video and audio to a hushed audience.
“They tortured children in front of parents and parents in front of children, burned people, including infants alive, and systematically raped and mutilated scores of women, men and children,” Becker said."
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israel-rejects-genocide-charges-claims-legitimate-self-defense-at-united-nations-top-court
This is TYPICAL of Hamas and Islamic Jihad: the intentional, openly announced and proudly glorified mass extermination of as many Israelis and Jews and their allies as possible (yes, they include Jews anywhere on their list of sworn enemies) for as long as possible, until they are stopped.
You can explain why you are seemingly allowing a moral equivalence between the terrorist kidnappers who murder innocent people, and their victims organizing in legal self-defense to track the perps down and kill THEM instead.
It's completely bogus and morally bankrupt. I for one do not intend to be bum rushed by the ridiculously superficial mass media coverage of this or that incident in an ongoing war, to lose sight of that.
And that Hamas refuses to even release all their hostages! Steals food meant for the civilians! Steals donated medicine! Shoots their OWN Palestinian population if they resist them, and have been doing so since 2006/2007, and with no elections, either!
It's a moral outrage that the discussions of this dramatic and tragic incident - which is only beginning to even be investigated, to see what went wrong - has stampeded so many people into effective dupes of Hamas!
But that's all too typical, we aren't Ukrainians being slaughtered by Putins invaders, and we aren't Jews in Israel being shelled and bombed day and night by Hamas and other terrorists.
A few months from now people who are shrieking about this will still not admit they were wrong, when it turns out this was a multiple-level screwup within the IDF's communications, and the soldiers who are disciplined for mistakenly approving the launch are guilty of laziness and incompetence, but recklessness like that that is not evidence of "genocide" or "genocidal intent."
With Hamas and Hizbollah ("Army of Allah") it's a daily occurrence they exult in, to intentionally massacre civilians.
The attack on the Liberty was an accident. Reparations were made, deep apologies given.
If (and this is a great huge improbable IF) this was accidental how can it be explained? WCK is known in Israel; the route was announced as a planned movement of WCK vehicles; the vehicles were well marked in an approved manner; the IDF knew of the plan.
And the most damning thing is the choice of rocket used. When I compared the photos that Lucian provided, I cringed. I really dislike conspiracy theories and those who spread them. However until the IDF can explain completely the sequence of events in a manner that indicates truth telling, I will continue to be uneasy.
I would say that Israel has lost me, something I never thought could happen, if tens of thousands of Israelis were not taking to the streets. As long as we keep sending weapons like these we will be as guilty as those who use them to commit genocide.
It clearly does NOT meet the criteria of "genocide," it's bad enough there was a massive internal communications fail within the Israeli military!
And a very strange kind of "genocide" that systematically warns civilians to flee to avoid military operations! That allows food and medicine in, that allows Israeli Palestinian Arabs to vote and serve in government - the Knesset, etc. No, this was a completely botched operational
disaster, but not intentional targeting of some food trucks.
https://www.futureofjewish.com/p/no-winning-a-war-is-not-genocide
BS. What you have posted here on this conflict since it began has been a robotic carbon copy of what Bebe's propaganda machine churns out. I don't buy it from him, I don't buy it from anyone in his government, and I don't buy it from you.
So you edited this, and now claim my carefully arrived positions on this are NOT the product of MY OWN research and reflection over many decades - since the 1967 six-day-war, in fact, what a disgusting smear against me, and so absurdly laughable!
You actually BELIEVE you can refute views you disagree with by showing they are "churned out" by someone, but that's NOT any kind of substantive rebuttal!
LOL, I cannot take this seriously, as you seem to actually believe I somehow or other am connected with the odious Netanyahu "because" YOU can't offer substantive support for any concrete, relevant refutations on policies he may or may not be correct about - and rushed to judgment, on what turned out to be a ghastly mistake, not a conscious and intentional act of military policy in this war.
So be it, I will just have to forge on even with your disapproval.
LOL, that's not a substantive rebuttal. Clearly the most likely scenario is a total breakdown of internal Israeli military communication (this is a hard fought war, Hamas has launched thousands and thousands of missiles, mortars and drones since October 7) and they ineptly fired that drone or missile strike at the wrong target.
www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/the-limits-of-accusing-israel-of-genocide-under-international-law
www.bnaibrith.org/4673-2/ EXCERPT:
The court did not rule that Israel has committed genocide (such a finding would normally take months or years to arrive at), but entertained the plausibility of such a charge, using the mischaracterized quotes to manufacture possible intent (a necessary component for genocide) and a slew of statements from biased U.N. agencies or officials.
The agencies cited included UNRWA, which has served as a mouthpiece for Hamas propaganda throughout the war (and long before), and has now had most of its funding suspended due to revelations that staff participated in the Hamas atrocities on Oct. 7. The officials cited include U.N. Special Rapporteurs who warned of genocide, led by former UNRWA employee and current Special Rapporteur on the “Occupied Palestinian Territories” Francesca Albanese. Albanese has told Hamas genocidaires that it has a “right to resist” and has complained that the Jewish lobby subjugates the United States, so her work should be considered radioactive, but in the U.N. context, this qualifies her as an “expert.” The ICJ is part of the U.N. system, so it should be no surprise that it built its decision on such a rotted foundation.
Having written all that, the ICJ could have chosen the even more radical route advocated by South Africa: decreeing preliminary measures to force Israel to stop its campaign against Hamas. It pointedly stopped well short of that (though, of course, could chose to do so later). The preliminary measures that the court adopted include telling Israel to make sure that genocide is not committed (it isn’t) and that Israel report back on its efforts in a month (which is unnecessary).
Prior to the decision, Hamas, expecting a win, said it would abide by the court’s ruling. The court called for the immediate and unconditional release of the Israeli hostages. Unconditional meaning: not as part of an exchange, not for a ceasefire, but right now. Unsurprisingly, Hamas went back on its word and did not release a single hostage (while also still cheering the decision and acting like it was a victory), despite talk of progress in hostage negotiations for weeks. In her dissenting opinion, one judge somewhat mirrored B’nai B’rith’s own arguments by calling on South Africa, which has hosted the terror group’s leaders, to pressure Hamas on this point —don’t hold your breath.
While the court decision was a victory in some ways for Israel—no preliminary measure calling for a ceasefire, and a call for Hamas to immediately release hostages (actually, even without a ceasefire)—the ICJ’s actions are incredibly dangerous. By entertaining South Africa’s blood libel, not by ruling that genocide was taking place but merely by saying that such an absurdity was plausible, the ICJ is legitimizing the genocide charge. The ICJ decision demonizes the Jewish state, making its defensive efforts in Gaza even more complicated, but is equally dangerous to Jews in the Diaspora. On the streets and in social media, anti-Israel elements are acting as if the ICJ ruled that genocide had occurred. Violent mobs are going after Jews spewing hate about “genocide.” Just this week, the FBI arrested a man who threatened Jewish institutions in Massachusetts. He justified his action as a response to “genocide” in Gaza. We can only assume that this will continue and grow.
You want a substantive rebuttal? Blah blah blah. I do not "debate" propaganda.
Wow, that's an admission you can't supply it? LOL, instead, just label any view with which you disagree as "propaganda"!
That's not even consistent and coherent, it's on the level of admitting that you don't even recognize you could be WRONG!
THIS is what's going on, see if you can recognize the syndrome and realize it actually fits the procedure: "If I encounter views on Israel/Palestine I ferociously reject, that's it, I am terming those views `propaganda' and any critical thought applications to assess their merits or failings is impossible from that point. Because I do not `debate' propaganda." Which simply refuses to deal with the ideas, shutting your eyes, covering your ears, get a clue!
camera-uk.org/2024/02/06/can-there-be-a-decent-pro-palestinian-left/
"Balas Berkovitz, a research fellow of the London Centre for the Study of Contemporary Antisemitism, recently published a paper at the journal K titled “The October 7th pogrom as a non-event on the Western left“, delving into the disturbing phenomenon of the pro-Palestinian left’s silence, and even excuse-making, in the face of Hamas’s sadistic orgy of antisemitic violence.
Berkowitz, in the immediate aftermath of Oct. 7, expressed the wish of many that, perhaps, there would be some soul-searching among supporters of the Palestinian cause, and a reaction along the lines of , at the very least, “this is not how we imagined Palestinian resistance,” or that they’d find more truthful words to designate the genocidal antisemitic motive at the core of the Hamas massacre.
But, he added, save a few voices, this was not to be, citing the impact of an rigid “ideological edifice constraining thinking” which forces adherents to “dismiss real-world evidence that could challenge their established interpretations”, which he likens to “the obstinate defense of Stalinism and Maoism, the denial of the existence of the Gulag, etc. [which] were…the hallmarks of much left-wing intelligentsia well into the…1960s”.
As Shany Mor argued, citing the Guardian rush to obscure the antisemitic atrocity by publishing a rash of columns in the immediate aftermath of Oct. 7 by accusing Israel of genocide, even while dead, burned and mutilated bodies – or, more often, parts or traces of what were once living human beings – were still being found: “Cognitive-dissonance reduction’ requires vilifying the victim to uphold one’s prejudices”. Cognitive dissonance reduction, Mor explained, is the process by which people reconcile new information that contradicts their firmly held priors.
Western activists for Palestinians, Mor added, “are dedicated to two nearly theological precepts: that Israel is evil, and that no Palestinian action is ever connected to any Palestinian outcome."
The attack was deliberate. The drone crew knew exactly what they were looking at and what they were doing. The attack was a war crime of the highest degree. The only remaining question - who ordered the hit?
A few facts that have been left out of the narrative fed to us by Israel. It was not AN attack. There were THREE seperate strikes by the IDF on three individual vehicles over a period of time while the occupants were in contact with them and moving survivors and the dead between vehicles
This is appears to be part of of a coordinated plan to frighten coerce aid agencies to withdraw from Gaza in order to further the use of starvation as a weapon of war against the population.
Don't believe me, listen to the Spanish-American founder of World Central Kitchen, José Andrés talking to the Reuters news agency https://youtu.be/ddoBO4KToSw?
Again, I state I believe that, by supplying the weapons, America risks prosecution for aiding and abetting Israel in crimes against humanity and/or genocide.
Thank you for adding those facts, Craig. I think they clarify some confusion about survivors in SusanRN's long thread here. Some of the humanitarians did survive initially, but the Israelis made sure that ultimately none lived to tell the tale.
We have blood on our hands. Not you and me, but our country does. Something has to change IMMEDIATELY.
Thank you, Lucian. Excellent analysis.