That’s the sound of me walking from the couch across the room to my study. Plop. That’s the sound of me sitting down in front of my keyboard and computer screen. Whuuuf. That’s the sound of me exhaling after watching an unmitigated disaster unfold for 90 minutes on my television.
I agree that the prep was terrible. He tried to say too much too fast and that made his stutter so much worse. I hope whoever preps him from now on has him say (on rebuttals): "Everything that was just said was a lie. Fact check at your leisure. Meanwhile, to answer the actual question.....:" And then take it slow and hit only the high points.
"It went on and on, and that was the point. This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.
It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has.
I think Dems are freaking at Joe being both off and not a great debater, and overlooking that Trump was openly: a liar crazy I-am-the-greatest nasty s..t-flinging toddler slash rapist/Mr.-I-did-not-sleep-with-a-porn-star con man thief loser. I mean, come on. He never answered the questions--climate, opioids, accepting the election result, more (someone list 'em) and lied and lied and lied. Believe it or not, the American people are not totally 100% stupid. Trump's base is, but they are not enough to elect him. Assume you are a dignified, civilized human: if you were working for one of these men, or married to one of them, which one would make you proud? If you say Trump, there is no help for you. If you say Biden, come sit by me.
But Trump was vigorous in his lies. He was smooth as the snake that he is. Very scary stuff. I could not be swayed but I can see how others might be. What you saw tonight was Satan at his best. I'm terrified.
Yes, Trump spewed his garbage forcefully and during the first half hour (I couldn't take it after that) spoke coherently in the sense of using complete sentences. Biden is three years older than Trump but looked and sounded twenty years older. He doesn't look like he'd make it for four years. It's not too late for him to step down for Michelle Obama.
And is Michelle Obama ready to run? I haven't heard that she is ready to start campaigning--indeed, quite the reverse. Stop fantasizing and face the fact that unless you are asking Kamala Harris to step in and take over, no one else has the war chest to conduct a Presidential campaign at this, the most expensive phase of the campaign.
Biden had a bad cold and he was being hosed with lies.
Geez this is one measly debate four month out from the election. Buck up.
I agree with you that Michelle Obama's running is a fantasy, and that Biden had a cold and was hosed with lies. And I hope that people forget the debate during the next four months. My fear is that many will vote on the basis of Biden's debate performance instead of on the basis of his being a good president.
Unfortunately for us and the rest of the civilized world - M.O. is not interested in the job. We have many other candidates who could and should step in once J.B. does the right thing and steps down. I will never forgive RBG for hanging on only to give dt another SCOTUS position. J.B. continuing is probably a gift for authoritarians. J.B. is an admirable human being with an awesome legacy but the time has come for him to retire. I was so sad for him. He did the best that he could.
I like that, but I’m worried that people think ANY physically fit man is better than ANY frail man in the White House. That’s total ableism, but there you go.
I’d have taken Stephen Hawking in the last years of his life any day over the likes of ten Donald Trumps.
I actually STILL have no doubt Biden can be a terrifically effective president for four more years.
I’m not worried about that ONE IOTA.
I’m worried about all the ableist people in the country who don’t understand the difference between a competent man and an incompetent one.
One of the MOST COMPETENT, and literally the president with the LONGEST LENGTH OF TIME IN OFICE, was Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and he COULD NOT STAND UP ON HIS OWN!
So, he hid that fact, and hid his wheelchair from cameras, so people would not think him incompetent.
Egad, why do people insist on being so stupid that we have to worry they’ll pick a sleazy, nasty liar instead of a competent, friendly old guy?
I'm not worried about him either. I'm worried that voters are worried about him. It only took MSNBC 45 minutes to start talking about an open convention with Biden's former press secretary leading the way.
Yes, that makes me furious, too. What do the R's do when their guy messes up? Why, they gather 'round and support him. What do Dems do? They run around like scared chickens, clutch their pearls and wail. Aren't we better than that? Yes. We. Are.
I don't think that the issue is where Joe is physically able, but is he competent? Tonight he repeatedly lost his train of thought and made nonsensical sentences.
He is not competent at debating, but he is, as he has demonstrated, competent at being president. They are two very different skills. When you consult experts and plan actions related to the economy or to foreign policy, you do not speak on a stage. There should not be debates.
I agree...because these stupid displays are not really debates--not in the way I have participated in them. This was merely an opportunity for Trump to misbehave egregiously in not answering mor than half the questions posed; lie like a firehose spewing water and never ever shut tf up. He wasn't fact-checked nor did turning off the mic seem to work. Forget the debates. Let Biden do what he does best: keep on Presidenting.
I think he was trying too hard. I blame the folks who helped (??) him prepare for the debate. He should have spoken slowly to the American people and not engaged Trump. He seemed in a big hurry to get all the stuff said that he was "supposed" to say. I donated to his campaign after the debate. We need him badly, as the other option is the Devil himself.
Yes. Aphasia {losing the word on the tip of one’s tongue} is a problem that affects literally EVERYBODY {who has never dealt with it?}, and it rises with the level of stress {I wrote a book about stress — I know what it can do. Biden is a brilliant man, old, and subject to stresses. I’d love a really STRONG candidate — I’d love ANYBODY but any Republican.}
the goal is to not let trump be elected. lamenting about why are so many people so blind, stupid, etc. does not reply to the concern that they did not see a biden that can lead. they may be right, they may be wrong. but what you don't want is for them to stay home or vote for trump. asking people why they are so dumb is not a strategy for winning.
People here are not asking REPUBLICANS why they are so dumb … we are wondering what MOTIVATES the people, or what we might focus on to get votes into the Democratic column, more than just “Oh, woe-ing” about the situation.
Absolutely, the task ahead is to stop the Republican fascist juggernaut and their idiotic, lying standard bearer.
It’s not time for “Oh, woe-ing.” It’s time for savvy strategy, and understanding the landscape makes a difference. We need to know what draws people over to their side, and what to do about it, rationally and in keeping with maintaining our country and our democracy.
Yes,HCR is correct.That was NOT a debate.It was a hit job of bump stock rhetoric that was aimed directly at a man with a known stutter.Someone posted on Facebook earlier today “He wasn’t feeling well and he was arguing with the actual devil.Don’t you dare abandon him.”
"It went on and on, and that was the point. This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.
It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has."
I like your style and your words! I just donated to Biden's campaign as per Robert Hubbell's substack suggestion. What do the R's do when their (clearly unfit and incoherent) guy gets convicted? They gather round to support him; that's what they do. What do dems do when they perceive a weakness in their guy? Why, they call for him to quit, to step down. They clutch their pearls and wail. Aren't we better than that? Yes. We. Are.
Donate; volunteer; write postcards; get involved in local politics if you can; volunteer to be an election worker....doing stuff is a win/win. It reduces anxiety and every little bit helps. Each one of us alone can only do little things--together we can do mighty things!
there are three camps. those who know they are voting for trump, those who know they are not voting for trump, and those who do not know what to do - not vote, write in, third party, maybe trump, maybe biden. biden's task was to convince at least a sliver of a sliver that he is the guy. he did not. it is not about what the dems are feeling. it is about what the nation is feeling. it is the job of the Dems to come up with a Hail Mary pass that will work to stop Trump
It seemed like Biden was over prepared for the debate, struggling with reciting a mountain of facts and figures, when he should have been reacting to the mountain of lies coming from Trump and calling him on them. Sadly, a missed opportunity. Let’s hope Biden’s team (if they’re not fired) recovers.
Having been verbally assaulted like this in a legislative hearing by a nasty state rep., I can tell you it is nearly impossible to respond cogently. Sucks the energy right out of you. Trump is a demon.
"It went on and on, and that was the point. This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.
"It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has."
Absolutely. I was interested to learn that this is a rhetorical technique. However, I still feel someone should have prepared Biden to counter it, even if that just meant prefacing his response each time with, “More lies from the convicted felon, folks. There’s not a word of truth in what he just said.”
Yes indeed. I thought having to get in all you want to say in 2 minutes under the pain of the red light can be very offputting especially for a guy with a stutter. He was trying to talk so fast at first and I think that's why. As my husband used to say his tongue got in the way of his eye teeth and he couldn't see what he was saying....kind of tongue-tied.
I recall my late husband, a big football fan, saying how the teams went there early in the week to get used to the altitude before the game. He went to Colorado several times on business; I have never been there.
Decades ago I learned about altitude sickness during a vigorous hike uphill in the Yosemite wilderness. I had unbelievable stomach cramps. My partners had me eat salt and drink water. After a night of sleep, I recovered.
Joe reminded me of the reality of COVID quite effectively. “There was no inflation when I became president,” he said. “You know why? The economy was flat on its back. He decimated the economy. Absolutely decimated the economy. That is why there was no inflation at the time. There were no jobs.”
I get that this was not the debate you were looking for, but it was clearly the lying liar vs a decent human being. Sometimes it takes a while to wear the liars down. On the basis of this debate I just raised my direct donations to the Biden campaign to the maximum legal limit. 16,000 more of us doing that would eclipse Mellon’s $50 contribution to Trump after his conviction for 34 felonies!
Thank you for these excellent suggestions - I made an extra donation tonight because I believe small donations are a signal of confidence in our President to be.
I was astonished at how unprepared Biden seemed to be for Trump. He acted the same as always. He said all predictable things. But Biden seemed caught off guard and exhausted. I felt nauseous when it was over.
Whoever played Trump in debate prep did not do a good job of spewing non-stop lies and fabrications so that Biden would be more prepared for all the malarkey, aka bullshit.
"It went on and on, and that was the point. This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.
It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has."
I disagree with Lucian's broad assessments. I do believe the "debate" was a complete waste - not a disaster - a waste. Our institutions still can't keep up with Trump's fire hose of lies. Sure, it would have been nice if Trump had imploded, but he was ready with a handful of lies that he repeated over and over and over. How many questions did he answer when first asked? How many did he eventually answer? None and few? If you're Biden, do you respond to the question asked, or to Trump's fusillade of lies? For example, Trump repeated the "19 people said I never said [the suckers and losers]," where did that come from and how would you call it out? That would devolve into a "Uh huh," "Nuh uh," almost like that silly golf handicap exchange. How many facts would Biden have to memorize to call out Trump's lies and do you honestly think Trump would quit spewing the same lie over and over anyway?
To dispense with the wailing and gnashing of teeth, Biden got in there for 90 minutes and went toe to toe with a lying, bloviating deviant criminal - he didn't back down, he landed some good shots and he showed that he has the energy to stand there for 90 minutes and actually answer questions he's asked. Sure, Trump seemed to have more energy, but given his accusations of drug use, what are the chances? The only things Trump proved are that he can memorize and outline of half a dozen lies ("19 people said") and repeat them over and over, and we still have no good antidote to someone who shamelessly lies with literally every word.
"It went on and on, and that was the point. This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.
It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has."
Agree, Lucian. Another device Bide. Should use to highlight lies is to incorporate Trump lies as assumptions - e.g. “We have to ask: Why is everything Donald Trump saying tonight a lie? One clear reason is…. <bla bla track record…, bla bla lack of respect for the American people, etc…>”. Another technique, cite the ground rules. “CNN decided their moderators would do no fact-checking tonight, so I will do some of that for you…”. Like you said, Lucian, we all have a thick pile of notes….
All I can say is, None of this whining for an open convention. Until or unless a decision is made by Biden to withdraw, Suck If Up and Fight Like Hell, People! Canvass till you drop!! Donate. Make calls!! Republicans’ mantra is: Never Let ‘Em See Ya Sweat! “Smile and Wave” for the Madagascar fans. Work Work Work!
My solution is to donate tonight to show support for Biden/Harris. No whining, no hand wringing, no compromise. Show support for democracy and do it now. I did!
Okay, I agree, but I bailed after the first 20 minutes. If your opponent is lying, youʼve won. Thereʼs only so much lying I can listen to. Why there was no fact checking I donʼt know, but my take is CNN fixed the debate. Another corporation in Putinʼs pocket. It may have been a disaster, but factually it was a disaster for Trump, not Biden.
"It went on and on, and that was the point. This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.
It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has."
Ask the expert: How much do presidential debates matter?
"When it comes to vote choice, research has generally suggested little impact from watching debates. Debate viewers tend to be among the most politically engaged and thereby likely to have their minds made up well before the debate. For these people, debates serve largely as a spectator sport, watched mainly to see how one’s preferred candidate performs and with little to no effect on their opinions of the candidates."
I agree, but in politics impressions matter. All most non-politically engaged people will take from this debate is that Biden looked old and confused, content won't matter. It's like Nixon vs. Kennedy.
Yup. Dems seem to blow every chance they get. Biden did not even say that the Bi-Partison immigration bill that gave the rebubs every thing they wanted and was ready to pass was killed by Trump just to keep it as a campaign issue to rail on. Damn......
"It went on and on, and that was the point. This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.
It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has."
My husband and I just wrote this. I'm sure the Biden campaign will be doing a lot of soul searching. We don't have to focus our efforts on second guessing them, berating them. Here's how we need to think and talk about the debate and the work we NEED to do:
Our takeaway is, first, that it wasn’t one. We didn’t watch mostly because we disliked the format, think it’s a big mistake that there was no fact checking - of even the most egregious lies. Giving trump and his lies the stage again, with Biden having to rebut – turning it into a “he said, he said” with Biden on defensive.
"Our takeaway on the debate is, first, that it wasn’t one. We didn’t watch mostly because we disliked the format, think it’s a big mistake that there was no fact checking - of even the most egregious lies. Giving trump and his lies the stage again, with Biden having to rebut – turning it into a “he said, he said” with Biden on defensive.
We hoped Biden wouldn’t debate – that he would say, simply, “It’s beneath the office of the President to debate with a convicted felon, accused felon, convicted rapist, someone who tried to stop the transfer of power after a free and fair election and someone who wants to end democracy for all time in this country. [See links to two good summaries of Project 2025. If you can’t stomach reading 920 pages of MAGA/trump/Heritage Foundation, it’s very important to at least know what it is that they’re planning – in plain sight, in detail that you maybe only know the vaguest outlines of.]
This debate is no more a fatal blow to Biden’s election than his excellent State of the Union speech - touted as the most important address that could affect the election – would be the last word. The press will be wringing everything negative they can out of this, and then move on to the next shiny disaster. We have about four months to go - -many more things will happen, that’s guaranteed.
Most importantly, the debate doesn’t change anything about what needs to happen between now and Nov 5. We must step up, buck up, sometimes out of our comfort zones and do the work. That’s what a campaign is about. So, so many people are doing just that – writing postcards, and letters, donating, canvassing etc -- and that’s why we’re going to win. There are many more of us than them. Biden is a decent, honest, accomplished, and very successful president under the most difficult conditions. And they have trump – the most horrendous, dangerous, lying felon ever.
Do we wish it had gone better, like the State of the Union speech? Of course. So does Joe. With age comes wisdom and experience that have served our country well. With age comes more tired days than when we were young. When you look at his schedule this month – trying to campaign while running the country, dealing with wars, multiple trips abroad, one might understand being tired. But even if Joe seemed tired and his voice was weak, we’d much rather be “us” than them. We know we all agree on that. So – on to the work and victory/s in Nov!"
"It went on and on, and that was the point. This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.
It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has."
Biden's advisors should have seen Trump's arguments coming: Trump forcefully delivering lies like a shotgun shooting buckshot. The lies were non-stop, just made-up nonsense about Biden being the worst President ever, and Trump being the greatest.
I am stunned at how weakly Biden responded to what most of us expected from Trump. Trump behaved as I had expected and hoped.
This is a street fight. Trump loves to roll over people ignoring rules. How could Biden's people at this late date not understand that? Fire 'em all.
I know! Jeezus. Do any Democrats have any instinct at all for what it's like on the playground? No rules!! You have to attack a bully and beat him down! You don't be a human punching bag.
I had spent the afternoon watching Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg testify on oversight of his department and its 2025 budget request before the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee.
I was mesmerized and happy with how he handled the hours and hours of questions; knowledgeable, succinct, respectful, but always pointing out the untruths in any Member's remarks. Even raising his voice once when the lies were too much. Before it was over, he had several Republicans giving him figurative high fives and asking to work with him. I felt like I was watching the legislature work the way it is supposed to after years of watching appalling hearings. I was so happy.....then I listened to Trump utter lie after lie on National television and my mood changed.
"Do any Democrats have any instinct at all for what it's like on the playground?" Yes, yes, yes!
"It went on and on, and that was the point. This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.
It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has."
I agree that the prep was terrible. He tried to say too much too fast and that made his stutter so much worse. I hope whoever preps him from now on has him say (on rebuttals): "Everything that was just said was a lie. Fact check at your leisure. Meanwhile, to answer the actual question.....:" And then take it slow and hit only the high points.
Dr. Heather Cox Richardson today:
"It went on and on, and that was the point. This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.
It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has.
They should hire you.
I agree. Loucian send Biden a letter, maybe whoever handles his incoming mail will pass it on.
Exactly! Thanks
I think Dems are freaking at Joe being both off and not a great debater, and overlooking that Trump was openly: a liar crazy I-am-the-greatest nasty s..t-flinging toddler slash rapist/Mr.-I-did-not-sleep-with-a-porn-star con man thief loser. I mean, come on. He never answered the questions--climate, opioids, accepting the election result, more (someone list 'em) and lied and lied and lied. Believe it or not, the American people are not totally 100% stupid. Trump's base is, but they are not enough to elect him. Assume you are a dignified, civilized human: if you were working for one of these men, or married to one of them, which one would make you proud? If you say Trump, there is no help for you. If you say Biden, come sit by me.
But Trump was vigorous in his lies. He was smooth as the snake that he is. Very scary stuff. I could not be swayed but I can see how others might be. What you saw tonight was Satan at his best. I'm terrified.
Yes, Trump spewed his garbage forcefully and during the first half hour (I couldn't take it after that) spoke coherently in the sense of using complete sentences. Biden is three years older than Trump but looked and sounded twenty years older. He doesn't look like he'd make it for four years. It's not too late for him to step down for Michelle Obama.
And is Michelle Obama ready to run? I haven't heard that she is ready to start campaigning--indeed, quite the reverse. Stop fantasizing and face the fact that unless you are asking Kamala Harris to step in and take over, no one else has the war chest to conduct a Presidential campaign at this, the most expensive phase of the campaign.
Biden had a bad cold and he was being hosed with lies.
Geez this is one measly debate four month out from the election. Buck up.
I agree with you that Michelle Obama's running is a fantasy, and that Biden had a cold and was hosed with lies. And I hope that people forget the debate during the next four months. My fear is that many will vote on the basis of Biden's debate performance instead of on the basis of his being a good president.
We will not be allowed to forget: clips of Biden's apparent weakness will be played over and over again.
..as will "I did not have sex with a porn star..."
Unfortunately for us and the rest of the civilized world - M.O. is not interested in the job. We have many other candidates who could and should step in once J.B. does the right thing and steps down. I will never forgive RBG for hanging on only to give dt another SCOTUS position. J.B. continuing is probably a gift for authoritarians. J.B. is an admirable human being with an awesome legacy but the time has come for him to retire. I was so sad for him. He did the best that he could.
The devil incarnate…indeed!
I like that, but I’m worried that people think ANY physically fit man is better than ANY frail man in the White House. That’s total ableism, but there you go.
I’d have taken Stephen Hawking in the last years of his life any day over the likes of ten Donald Trumps.
I'd have taken a dead body over Trump.
I actually STILL have no doubt Biden can be a terrifically effective president for four more years.
I’m not worried about that ONE IOTA.
I’m worried about all the ableist people in the country who don’t understand the difference between a competent man and an incompetent one.
One of the MOST COMPETENT, and literally the president with the LONGEST LENGTH OF TIME IN OFICE, was Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and he COULD NOT STAND UP ON HIS OWN!
So, he hid that fact, and hid his wheelchair from cameras, so people would not think him incompetent.
Egad, why do people insist on being so stupid that we have to worry they’ll pick a sleazy, nasty liar instead of a competent, friendly old guy?
Dammit!
I'm not worried about him either. I'm worried that voters are worried about him. It only took MSNBC 45 minutes to start talking about an open convention with Biden's former press secretary leading the way.
Yes, that makes me furious, too. What do the R's do when their guy messes up? Why, they gather 'round and support him. What do Dems do? They run around like scared chickens, clutch their pearls and wail. Aren't we better than that? Yes. We. Are.
That made me very angry.
Truth is sometimes painful
I don't think that the issue is where Joe is physically able, but is he competent? Tonight he repeatedly lost his train of thought and made nonsensical sentences.
He is not competent at debating, but he is, as he has demonstrated, competent at being president. They are two very different skills. When you consult experts and plan actions related to the economy or to foreign policy, you do not speak on a stage. There should not be debates.
I agree...because these stupid displays are not really debates--not in the way I have participated in them. This was merely an opportunity for Trump to misbehave egregiously in not answering mor than half the questions posed; lie like a firehose spewing water and never ever shut tf up. He wasn't fact-checked nor did turning off the mic seem to work. Forget the debates. Let Biden do what he does best: keep on Presidenting.
I think he was trying too hard. I blame the folks who helped (??) him prepare for the debate. He should have spoken slowly to the American people and not engaged Trump. He seemed in a big hurry to get all the stuff said that he was "supposed" to say. I donated to his campaign after the debate. We need him badly, as the other option is the Devil himself.
Yes. Aphasia {losing the word on the tip of one’s tongue} is a problem that affects literally EVERYBODY {who has never dealt with it?}, and it rises with the level of stress {I wrote a book about stress — I know what it can do. Biden is a brilliant man, old, and subject to stresses. I’d love a really STRONG candidate — I’d love ANYBODY but any Republican.}
the goal is to not let trump be elected. lamenting about why are so many people so blind, stupid, etc. does not reply to the concern that they did not see a biden that can lead. they may be right, they may be wrong. but what you don't want is for them to stay home or vote for trump. asking people why they are so dumb is not a strategy for winning.
People here are not asking REPUBLICANS why they are so dumb … we are wondering what MOTIVATES the people, or what we might focus on to get votes into the Democratic column, more than just “Oh, woe-ing” about the situation.
Absolutely, the task ahead is to stop the Republican fascist juggernaut and their idiotic, lying standard bearer.
It’s not time for “Oh, woe-ing.” It’s time for savvy strategy, and understanding the landscape makes a difference. We need to know what draws people over to their side, and what to do about it, rationally and in keeping with maintaining our country and our democracy.
I am certainly worried about the challenges of American public opinion. And I certainly don't think the night went well. That said...
Yes,HCR is correct.That was NOT a debate.It was a hit job of bump stock rhetoric that was aimed directly at a man with a known stutter.Someone posted on Facebook earlier today “He wasn’t feeling well and he was arguing with the actual devil.Don’t you dare abandon him.”
yes! this^^^^^^
Dr. Heather Cox Richardson today:
"It went on and on, and that was the point. This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.
It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has."
I like your style and your words! I just donated to Biden's campaign as per Robert Hubbell's substack suggestion. What do the R's do when their (clearly unfit and incoherent) guy gets convicted? They gather round to support him; that's what they do. What do dems do when they perceive a weakness in their guy? Why, they call for him to quit, to step down. They clutch their pearls and wail. Aren't we better than that? Yes. We. Are.
Donate; volunteer; write postcards; get involved in local politics if you can; volunteer to be an election worker....doing stuff is a win/win. It reduces anxiety and every little bit helps. Each one of us alone can only do little things--together we can do mighty things!
there are three camps. those who know they are voting for trump, those who know they are not voting for trump, and those who do not know what to do - not vote, write in, third party, maybe trump, maybe biden. biden's task was to convince at least a sliver of a sliver that he is the guy. he did not. it is not about what the dems are feeling. it is about what the nation is feeling. it is the job of the Dems to come up with a Hail Mary pass that will work to stop Trump
Predictable sh**show. Rule that should've been remembered: Never wrestle with a pig. You just get dirty and the pig enjoys it.
And never argue with an idiot, people watching can’t always tell the difference. And yet those were Joe Biden’s task with this debate.
It's impossible to debate or argue with a pathological liar.
It seemed like Biden was over prepared for the debate, struggling with reciting a mountain of facts and figures, when he should have been reacting to the mountain of lies coming from Trump and calling him on them. Sadly, a missed opportunity. Let’s hope Biden’s team (if they’re not fired) recovers.
I agree with that...he was over prepared - I mean a week at Camp David!!
But they knew who he was going up against. They need to bring in comedy writers for the next one, if Trump doesn’t bail.
I agree.
Having been verbally assaulted like this in a legislative hearing by a nasty state rep., I can tell you it is nearly impossible to respond cogently. Sucks the energy right out of you. Trump is a demon.
Dr. Heather Cox Richardson today:
"It went on and on, and that was the point. This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.
"It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has."
Absolutely. I was interested to learn that this is a rhetorical technique. However, I still feel someone should have prepared Biden to counter it, even if that just meant prefacing his response each time with, “More lies from the convicted felon, folks. There’s not a word of truth in what he just said.”
Yes indeed. I thought having to get in all you want to say in 2 minutes under the pain of the red light can be very offputting especially for a guy with a stutter. He was trying to talk so fast at first and I think that's why. As my husband used to say his tongue got in the way of his eye teeth and he couldn't see what he was saying....kind of tongue-tied.
The Obama/Romney debate also occurred to me. One thing about this June debate, it can be ancient history like that one was.
Exactly. Obama bombed one of his debates and came back strong in the one closer to the election.
I don’t think Trump will debate again. He has nothing to gain.
sometimes, it's accidentally a good thing that the historical memory of most Americans is about three weeks, if that.
And that is possible here since Trump will feel.like he did fine. And Joe and his team will know what to expect and how to avoid the same mistakes.
His team needs to be fired like tonight
Part of the reason was that Obama did not have time to adjust to the altitude in Colorado and Romney was already there.
I did not know that.
Yes, Denver is called the mile-high city. It takes awhile to adjust to the altitude.
I recall my late husband, a big football fan, saying how the teams went there early in the week to get used to the altitude before the game. He went to Colorado several times on business; I have never been there.
I am sorry for your loss of your husband.
Decades ago I learned about altitude sickness during a vigorous hike uphill in the Yosemite wilderness. I had unbelievable stomach cramps. My partners had me eat salt and drink water. After a night of sleep, I recovered.
Joe reminded me of the reality of COVID quite effectively. “There was no inflation when I became president,” he said. “You know why? The economy was flat on its back. He decimated the economy. Absolutely decimated the economy. That is why there was no inflation at the time. There were no jobs.”
I get that this was not the debate you were looking for, but it was clearly the lying liar vs a decent human being. Sometimes it takes a while to wear the liars down. On the basis of this debate I just raised my direct donations to the Biden campaign to the maximum legal limit. 16,000 more of us doing that would eclipse Mellon’s $50 contribution to Trump after his conviction for 34 felonies!
Thank you for these excellent suggestions - I made an extra donation tonight because I believe small donations are a signal of confidence in our President to be.
I am doing this too.
I was astonished at how unprepared Biden seemed to be for Trump. He acted the same as always. He said all predictable things. But Biden seemed caught off guard and exhausted. I felt nauseous when it was over.
Whoever played Trump in debate prep did not do a good job of spewing non-stop lies and fabrications so that Biden would be more prepared for all the malarkey, aka bullshit.
Me too.!
Dr. Heather Cox Richardson today:
"It went on and on, and that was the point. This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.
It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has."
I disagree with Lucian's broad assessments. I do believe the "debate" was a complete waste - not a disaster - a waste. Our institutions still can't keep up with Trump's fire hose of lies. Sure, it would have been nice if Trump had imploded, but he was ready with a handful of lies that he repeated over and over and over. How many questions did he answer when first asked? How many did he eventually answer? None and few? If you're Biden, do you respond to the question asked, or to Trump's fusillade of lies? For example, Trump repeated the "19 people said I never said [the suckers and losers]," where did that come from and how would you call it out? That would devolve into a "Uh huh," "Nuh uh," almost like that silly golf handicap exchange. How many facts would Biden have to memorize to call out Trump's lies and do you honestly think Trump would quit spewing the same lie over and over anyway?
To dispense with the wailing and gnashing of teeth, Biden got in there for 90 minutes and went toe to toe with a lying, bloviating deviant criminal - he didn't back down, he landed some good shots and he showed that he has the energy to stand there for 90 minutes and actually answer questions he's asked. Sure, Trump seemed to have more energy, but given his accusations of drug use, what are the chances? The only things Trump proved are that he can memorize and outline of half a dozen lies ("19 people said") and repeat them over and over, and we still have no good antidote to someone who shamelessly lies with literally every word.
From Dr. Heather Cox Richarddon today:
"It went on and on, and that was the point. This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.
It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has."
Agree, Lucian. Another device Bide. Should use to highlight lies is to incorporate Trump lies as assumptions - e.g. “We have to ask: Why is everything Donald Trump saying tonight a lie? One clear reason is…. <bla bla track record…, bla bla lack of respect for the American people, etc…>”. Another technique, cite the ground rules. “CNN decided their moderators would do no fact-checking tonight, so I will do some of that for you…”. Like you said, Lucian, we all have a thick pile of notes….
All I can say is, None of this whining for an open convention. Until or unless a decision is made by Biden to withdraw, Suck If Up and Fight Like Hell, People! Canvass till you drop!! Donate. Make calls!! Republicans’ mantra is: Never Let ‘Em See Ya Sweat! “Smile and Wave” for the Madagascar fans. Work Work Work!
100 percent.
My solution is to donate tonight to show support for Biden/Harris. No whining, no hand wringing, no compromise. Show support for democracy and do it now. I did!
https://joebiden.com/
I did, too.
I just did the same!
Most definitely
Okay, I agree, but I bailed after the first 20 minutes. If your opponent is lying, youʼve won. Thereʼs only so much lying I can listen to. Why there was no fact checking I donʼt know, but my take is CNN fixed the debate. Another corporation in Putinʼs pocket. It may have been a disaster, but factually it was a disaster for Trump, not Biden.
Dr. Heather Cox Richardson today:
"It went on and on, and that was the point. This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.
It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has."
Ask the expert: How much do presidential debates matter?
"When it comes to vote choice, research has generally suggested little impact from watching debates. Debate viewers tend to be among the most politically engaged and thereby likely to have their minds made up well before the debate. For these people, debates serve largely as a spectator sport, watched mainly to see how one’s preferred candidate performs and with little to no effect on their opinions of the candidates."
https://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2024/ask-the-expert-how-much-do-presidential-debates-matter
I agree, but in politics impressions matter. All most non-politically engaged people will take from this debate is that Biden looked old and confused, content won't matter. It's like Nixon vs. Kennedy.
sadly, the impressions are being strengthened by the media's choices in commentary.
Right on every count. Democrats have to bring in a team with the grit to fight for democracy and take Trump down. It’s a war, not a debate club.
Yup. Dems seem to blow every chance they get. Biden did not even say that the Bi-Partison immigration bill that gave the rebubs every thing they wanted and was ready to pass was killed by Trump just to keep it as a campaign issue to rail on. Damn......
He did say that but not clearly enough - obviously.
Yes he did say it, RR.
From Dr. Heather Cox Richardson today:
"It went on and on, and that was the point. This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.
It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has."
My husband and I just wrote this. I'm sure the Biden campaign will be doing a lot of soul searching. We don't have to focus our efforts on second guessing them, berating them. Here's how we need to think and talk about the debate and the work we NEED to do:
Our takeaway is, first, that it wasn’t one. We didn’t watch mostly because we disliked the format, think it’s a big mistake that there was no fact checking - of even the most egregious lies. Giving trump and his lies the stage again, with Biden having to rebut – turning it into a “he said, he said” with Biden on defensive.
"Our takeaway on the debate is, first, that it wasn’t one. We didn’t watch mostly because we disliked the format, think it’s a big mistake that there was no fact checking - of even the most egregious lies. Giving trump and his lies the stage again, with Biden having to rebut – turning it into a “he said, he said” with Biden on defensive.
We hoped Biden wouldn’t debate – that he would say, simply, “It’s beneath the office of the President to debate with a convicted felon, accused felon, convicted rapist, someone who tried to stop the transfer of power after a free and fair election and someone who wants to end democracy for all time in this country. [See links to two good summaries of Project 2025. If you can’t stomach reading 920 pages of MAGA/trump/Heritage Foundation, it’s very important to at least know what it is that they’re planning – in plain sight, in detail that you maybe only know the vaguest outlines of.]
This debate is no more a fatal blow to Biden’s election than his excellent State of the Union speech - touted as the most important address that could affect the election – would be the last word. The press will be wringing everything negative they can out of this, and then move on to the next shiny disaster. We have about four months to go - -many more things will happen, that’s guaranteed.
Most importantly, the debate doesn’t change anything about what needs to happen between now and Nov 5. We must step up, buck up, sometimes out of our comfort zones and do the work. That’s what a campaign is about. So, so many people are doing just that – writing postcards, and letters, donating, canvassing etc -- and that’s why we’re going to win. There are many more of us than them. Biden is a decent, honest, accomplished, and very successful president under the most difficult conditions. And they have trump – the most horrendous, dangerous, lying felon ever.
Do we wish it had gone better, like the State of the Union speech? Of course. So does Joe. With age comes wisdom and experience that have served our country well. With age comes more tired days than when we were young. When you look at his schedule this month – trying to campaign while running the country, dealing with wars, multiple trips abroad, one might understand being tired. But even if Joe seemed tired and his voice was weak, we’d much rather be “us” than them. We know we all agree on that. So – on to the work and victory/s in Nov!"
From Dr. Heather Cox Richardson today:
"It went on and on, and that was the point. This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.
It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has."
Biden's advisors should have seen Trump's arguments coming: Trump forcefully delivering lies like a shotgun shooting buckshot. The lies were non-stop, just made-up nonsense about Biden being the worst President ever, and Trump being the greatest.
I am stunned at how weakly Biden responded to what most of us expected from Trump. Trump behaved as I had expected and hoped.
This is a street fight. Trump loves to roll over people ignoring rules. How could Biden's people at this late date not understand that? Fire 'em all.
I know! Jeezus. Do any Democrats have any instinct at all for what it's like on the playground? No rules!! You have to attack a bully and beat him down! You don't be a human punching bag.
I had spent the afternoon watching Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg testify on oversight of his department and its 2025 budget request before the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee.
I was mesmerized and happy with how he handled the hours and hours of questions; knowledgeable, succinct, respectful, but always pointing out the untruths in any Member's remarks. Even raising his voice once when the lies were too much. Before it was over, he had several Republicans giving him figurative high fives and asking to work with him. I felt like I was watching the legislature work the way it is supposed to after years of watching appalling hearings. I was so happy.....then I listened to Trump utter lie after lie on National television and my mood changed.
"Do any Democrats have any instinct at all for what it's like on the playground?" Yes, yes, yes!
From Dr. Heather Cox Richardson today:
"It went on and on, and that was the point. This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.
It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has."