If there is one military phrase I have gotten tired of over the last twenty years or so it is “boots on the ground.” Foreign policy poo-bahs call for boots on the ground every time they want to flap their hawk wings over a conflict they want us engaged in or an area of the world they think we should pay more attention to…as if having more than 140 separate American military installations and outposts around the world, each full of boots on the ground, isn’t enough.
Yes. Enough. Way past enough. Netanyahu, corrupt and cynical has lost what minuscule credibility he might have held, given he’s been clutching his power like a drunken Trump ogling his older daughter. We need to pull the children to the safety of our arms, keep them and innocents in this fight under our protection from indiscriminate blind murder.
BB played Biden. Lying SOB. promises in English thinking he can manipulate Americans. Different statements in Hebrew with his evil coalition and their plans to get rid of Palestinians . Disgusting. Time to put our foot down and join with the majority of Israelis who want him and his coalition gone.
Completely agree that with all our sophisticated weapons the last thing we need is troops in Gaza. Biden is finally starting to do what he has to do, we can no longer support Netanyahu when he's gone from a military response to a campaign of genocide.
Netanyahu is not “crazy” in the clinical sense. He’s off-the-charts arrogant, an imperious bully who still thinks that because of the Holocaust and centuries of antisemitism he and Israel have carte blanche to do any damned thing they want to do. I applaud Biden’s actions here, and I hope he does more on this line, but I guarantee you that BB, arrogant beyond all power to describe, will now work (probably is already doing this) behind the scenes, along with Russia and China (Who? Me?) to get Trump elected: a worshipful useful idiot, an insecure and pliable coward who cowtows to leaders with power. Like Putin, and Xi, and Kim. And Netanyahu.
Agree 100%. There's a very complex relationship between past history and current realities. If I were Israel, I wouldn't trust the western European powers, or the Russians, or the Arab countries, or anyone else either. The fate of Yitzhak Rabin, Anwar Sadat, and others who tried to be open to dialogue is not encouraging. I applaud Biden's actions too, and I'm (very cautiously) encouraged by the unwillingness of the other Arab states to go gung-ho for Hamas. (I suspect suspicion of Iran has something to do with it, but I hope they're also just sick of the instability and the continual drain on resources.)
He knew of the Hamas invasion a full year in advance and in detail. He, like Trump is screwing up the democratic system of his country to stay out of jail. He has been shoring up Hamas for years, knowing he needs that threat to justify his fascisic rule.
The layers upon layers here will take years if not decades to sort out: the descendants of genocide victims becoming genocidal themselves, the symbiotic relationship between sworn enemies, the many decades of powers great and small using the statelessness of the Palestinians for their own purposes . . . Langston Hughes's question "What happens to a dream deferred?" is never far from my mind, nor are his hypothetical answers in the poem "Harlem": https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46548/harlem
It was published in reliable sources, shortly after Oct.7th. I remember Israeli security personel quotes and other documentation. The plan was intercepted and it detailed exactly how Hamas carried it out. Nothing in the hi-tech systems along that wall were reinforced or monitored. Heather might have even referred to that news. We can look through a few weeks of mid-October news.
The article does say that IDF knew and blew it off. It does not say Bibi knew, however. No matter what, it’s a serious breach and all involved should he at the Hague!
Lucian, your effort to bring more clarity to a hopelessly blurry situation is more than welcome. Any statement Israel makes, or video or material it releases to bolster its preferred narrative has to be viewed with great suspicion, if not immediate disbelief. Which is not to say that Hamas is any less disingenuous. The ‘fog of war’ hides everything, but especially the truth. However, the needless suffering of the Gaza populace is beyond question, and Biden’s refusal thus far to stop the Israeli genocide makes him look weak, and Yahoo strong, aside from needlessly prolonging the bombing. Yes, it’s a complex political situation, but it always is where Israel and the Middle East are concerned. The moral high ground is there for America to take, but fear of driving American Jews into the Republican camp by challenging Yahoo the way he needs to be challenged has to be subordinated to appearing before the world as hypocrites for not using our power to help end the Israeli slaughter of the innocent in Gaza. This is a defining moment of American foreign policy, but if we want to be seen as the ‘good guys’ we have to behave like good guys, and until now we haven’t done that. Here’s hoping Biden and Co. have plans to escalate their intervention beyond the airlifting of humanitarian aid. We have to force Yahoo and the IDF to back off.
Dropping the food. Yes. People are already starving. More food please. But...Hamas slaughtered 1200 Israeli human beings. Israel, it seems, didn't think it was okay (for example) to chain up 10-20 children, douse them with gasoline and set them on fire and so we see what Israel's doing to Gaza. But, who are the innocent? British bombers laid waste to German cities in what was basically revenge for the Blitz. Who was innocent? The Nazis were the bad guys but in Germany, who were the innocent? American bombers laid waste to Japan until there were no more cities left to burn. At some point the cycle of hate and murder has to end. Hopefully, we are not in the beginning of WWIII but it's not looking good. Right now I don't believe there are any innocents. George Carlin was probably right: if you're alive and kicking, you're guilty as charged.
First, Hamas does not distinguish between combatants and non-combatants. Nor does it account for those Palestinians killed by misfired rockets – which accounts for up to 20% of all Gaza rocket fire. Further, it’s been reported that roughly 11,000 of those 28,000 (reportedly) killed are Hamas fighters. This ratio of civilian to combatant casualties, argued renowned military historian Andrew Roberts, is exceptionally low in the history of urban warfare – especially considering Hamas’s human shield policy, which intentionally places fighters, weapons and and military infrastructure in civilian areas.
Further, John Spencer, Chair of Urban Warfare Studies at the Modern War Institute at West Point, has argued that “Israel has implemented more measures to prevent civilian casualties than any other military in the history of war”, even though such measures increase the risk to their own soldiers. Such measures, he adds, have never been undertaken by the US Army in similar situations.
Oh, Marlene, I guess you really haven't followed the credible accounts of the atrocities and these are not even the worst, and having JUST MINUTES AGO discovered on this newsletter comments column you're the daughter of two Holocaust survivors - I urge you "on general humanistic psych principles a la Erich Fromm and Abraham Maslow" - do NOT investigate further, the hostage accounts on film, online, well, if Mengele's victims had survived, what would their accounts be like? HAMAS is arguably on the level of the most fanatical Nazis running fiendish "medical experiments," particularly in this October 7 episode. They were running one of the Hamas terrorists phoning his parents, an intercepted phone call, he is gloating, over the moon, because he "killed ten Jews with `my own hands,'" and this is to his PARENTS! The mentality is too much for the mainstream media accounts and "both sides are equally evil" moralizers, much less some of the utopians or hard-core anti-Semites who want a PERMANENT ceasefire to allow Hamas to reorganize for another massacre, no way that happens, it's delusional, Israel will totally "go it alone" before they would fall for that - it's an existential threat now, only way it ends is when Hamas is out of the picture, for a start.
Oh Richard, why do you have to be so condescending?
Your false analogies fall flat. You're ignoring crucial information such as Netanyahu's encouragement and use of Hamas for his own purposes up until the surprise Oct attack which might cause one to conclude that Netanyahu was complicit. "I guess you really haven't followed the credible accounts".
Moreover your ad hominem effort at labeling those who want a permanent ceasefire as anti-semites is growing old.
Yes, Hamas needs to be reduced to irrelevancy but killing its adherents along with innocent civilians who are mostly women and children won't kill the ideology. That can only happen through diplomacy rather than war. Israel is fast losing the high ground on the issue and its supporters are going down with the ship as well.
Btw, you start on April 1, 2023 and it looks like a classic "troll account," so thanks for the opportunity to educate you out of your probably pestiferous perambulations provoking persistent paranoia, Padre!
You mean the mob willing to engage in voluntary manslaughter of the truck drivers if it would
mean they could STEAL the food before it could be distributed, those people?
Richard Turnbull, J.D.
Richard’s Substack
18 mins ago
You do realize that the argument that "You are just repeating Israeli government dogma" is a total logic fail, an infamous conglomeration of several fallacies? It has ZERO substantial bearing on the TRUTH (or falsity!) of any given specific argument, not only that, who should we expect to be on the scene and most au courant with persuasive, cogent, lucid, relevant arguments and considerations about how an internationally designated terrorist state, Hamas's Gaza, attacked and murdered thousands of civilian citizens in cold blood, than the citizen's own state? Which undoubtedly includes thousands of the victims close and more distant blood kin?
You need to study logic and in particular, FALLACIES, so as to learn to avoid them, you wouldn't accept an argument like "But you're just repeating the Stratfordian dogma" in the Shakespeare Authorship Question discussions, you would demand a cogent alternative!*
"First, Hamas does not distinguish between combatants and non-combatants. Nor does it account for those Palestinians killed by misfired rockets – which accounts for up to 20% of all Gaza rocket fire. Further, it’s been reported that roughly 11,000 of those 28,000 (reportedly) killed are Hamas fighters. This ratio of civilian to combatant casualties, argued renowned military historian Andrew Roberts, is exceptionally low in the history of urban warfare – especially considering Hamas’s human shield policy, which intentionally places fighters, weapons and and military infrastructure in civilian areas.
Further, John Spencer, Chair of Urban Warfare Studies at the Modern War Institute at West Point, has argued that “Israel has implemented more measures to prevent civilian casualties than any other military in the history of war”, even though such measures increase the risk to their own soldiers. Such measures, he adds, have never been undertaken by the US Army in similar situations. "
Jeez Maureen, and you trust the PROVEN LIARS in the Gaza Health Ministry, plus still deny the UNRWA terrorist claims, AND put words in my mouth when OF COURSE I explicitly stated that not all the IDF statements are necessarily true, OF COURSE NOT, I want ALL the Hamas AND possible IDF war crimes dealt with as expeditiously as possible - notice the stark difference remains: HAMAS openly and intentionally murders civilians en masse, and gloats about it.
So far we do. not. know. WHERE all of these people with supposed "gun shot wounds" were fired upon, it's a "hot war zone" kept in that state by the HAMAS TERRORISTS who refuse to release their hostages - evidently I could claim YOU support allowing Hamas to engage in mass murder, mass rape, mass kidnapping, and then hide out behind their civilians and that's it, the VICTIMS of Hamas can't track down the perps and shoot at them?
No, I realize you are sincerely moved, as I am, by the suffering on both sides - I just refuse to go along with the preposterous bilge that would foreclose Israel's self-defense, that's all.
Because, for one thing, NO country would accept that - it's simply insane and it is NOT what the law of ARMED CONFLICT allows, so stop pretending it does, it allows proportional retaliation! *
We don't even know if the VIDEO FOOTAGE of them is from current hospitalizations, and we CERTAINLY don't know if the LYING and biased UN "observers" confabulated still more lies, either - it is far more likely almost all of the dead were TRAMPLED TO DEATH, rather that shot, plus you evidently totally fail to realize a mob doesn't magically acquire the right to pose an imminent threat of DEATH to the truck drivers trying to deliver them food, either!
This is ALL on Hamas - who could end the entire war PERMANENTLY with a unilateral ceasefire declaration, hostage release, renouncing mass murdering terrorism....
And 1200 dead on October 7 would be, proportionally taking account of the US population,
42, 000 IN ONE DAY, or imagine it happening in ONE DAY in Dublin (or Belfast in NI) - 5.15 million population for the Republic of Ireland, versus 9.8 million for Israel, at least over 2000 dead IN ONE DAY, and by marauding terrorists vowing to do it over and over!
Maureen you know as well as I do that the Republic's people would DEMAND that any neighboring entity, state, province, or a nearby island, that sent in terrorists who did anything close to that, with the rapes and other atrocities, would be relentlessly fought tooth and nail until Hell freezes over and then fought skating on the ice!
First, Hamas does not distinguish between combatants and non-combatants. Nor does it account for those Palestinians killed by misfired rockets – which accounts for up to 20% of all Gaza rocket fire. Further, it’s been reported that roughly 11,000 of those 28,000 (reportedly) killed are Hamas fighters. This ratio of civilian to combatant casualties, argued renowned military historian Andrew Roberts, is exceptionally low in the history of urban warfare – especially considering Hamas’s human shield policy, which intentionally places fighters, weapons and and military infrastructure in civilian areas.
Further, John Spencer, Chair of Urban Warfare Studies at the Modern War Institute at West Point, has argued that “Israel has implemented more measures to prevent civilian casualties than any other military in the history of war”, even though such measures increase the risk to their own soldiers. Such measures, he adds, have never been undertaken by the US Army in similar situations."
Proportionality in international law is not about equality of death or civilian suffering, or even about firepower returned being equal in sophistication or lethality to firepower received. Proportionality weighs the military necessity of an action against the suffering that the action might cause to enemy civilians in the vicinity. A review of expert opinion – none of which was written in relation to Israel – helps to clarify. And each should be read in relation to Hamas crimes against Israeli civilians.
Prof. Horst Fischer, Academic Director of the Institute for International Law of Peace and Armed Conflict at the Ruhr-Universität Bochum in Germany, and Adjunct Professor at Columbia University, wrote in The Crimes of War Project:
The principle of proportionality is embedded in almost every national legal system and underlies the international legal order… When a party commits a lawful attack against a military objective, the principle of proportionality also comes into play whenever there is collateral damage, that is, civilian casualties or damage to a non-military objective… attacks are prohibited if they cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, or damage to civilian objects that is excessive in relation to the anticipated concrete and direct military advantage of the attack. This creates a permanent obligation for military commanders to consider the results of the attack compared to the advantage anticipated.
Exactly as Israel does when it drops leaflets warning civilians of an impending attack and aborts missions after finding civilians used as human shields on rooftops."
From the outside, Hamas looks like yet another gang of misogynist sh*ts. Unfortunately, so does the IDF, and I expect better from the IDF. How does what Hamas did justify what Israel is doing?
In the late 1940's my grandmother used to ask, sometimes rhetorically, sometimes not, sometimes humorously, about a piece of news was, "Is it good for the Jews?" The answer in Israel today is, "No, bubbe."
Biden finally had to act. But I it's far too little, way too late.
I have a shattered feeling. No American president has been a truer friend to the Jewish people than Joe Biden. No one could be more passionately opposed to antisemitism, or a more passionate supporter of the right of Jews to their own country and the right of Israel to defend itself. And Netanyahu used this to make a sucker out of him. Biden supported the campaign to destroy Hamas and it ended up being, in reality, a brutal ethnic cleansing of the Gaza strip. The horrors of it, bombings, starvation, disease, causing the death of tens of thousands of civilians. Tens of thousands of innocent people. Biden's reward for his love of the Jewish people is...he has this blood on his hands. We all do. All American Jews do. All Americans do. We were a part of it. We could have withdrawn our support of it. We could have put our big feet down and stopped it. Shame. Shame on all of us.
“No American President has been a truer friend to the Jewish people than Joe Biden.” That is not a true statement. Mostly all of our Presidents, including the 91 counts of convictions guy, have been a friend to Israel and that dates back to decades. I want to remind you that HAMAS is the “purveyor” of kidnapping, rape, and murders of innocent children, men and women, mostly peace lovers. The US was providing security for the Israeli dome that fights air and rocket attacks. I don’t believe anyone anticipated Bibi’s crazy death wish that he has now committed. Yes, he and the Likud Party should be held and convicted by The Hague for their despicable acts but what about HAMAS?? Where are the rest of the hostages? Some are American and Biden has had to play a very delicate hand in getting them out safely. This is what people are not talking about. Biden does not have blood on his hands and I resent that statement, but Bibi Netanyahu and HAMAS do.
A little boy, around the age of 10, cried out as blood splatter was all over him, "What have I done?" This haunts me daily. Biden needs to do more!! The suffering of innocent people needs to stop! It is time for Biden to do what is right and not worry about his polling. I think he would still prevail because Trump is America's Netanyahu. I pray for peace for Israel and Palestine. May it come soon!
Wow, and it WOULD stop if the the HAMAS terrorists declared a unilateral ceasefire, released all their hostages, etc.
As it is they won't even supply the names of the kidnap victims. Hamas has launched over 15,000 missiles, mortars, drones and other attacks INTO ISRAEL since October 7, let that sink in, too.
This is what happens when a terrorist gangster government sites all of its crucial military infrastructure it possibly can IN AND AROUND HOSPTALS, SCHOOLS, MOSQUES, CHURCHES, APARTMENT BLOCKS, SHOPPING CENTERS, PRIVATE HOMES, LIBRARIES - oh wait, no libraries allowed, no free speech allowed, no free and fair elections allowed, no opposition Palestinian parties allowed, no women's rights allowed (ESPECIALLY that!) - just human shields, human sacrifices, that's all good...
Richard, do you have any idea of how Hamas became Hamas? Did your history of the region start with 7 October? If so, please go back at least to 1948, and -- even better -- to the Sykes-Picot Agreement (1916) and the Balfour Declaration (1917).
Yeah Susanna, I have studied their history extensively, and the specific history you mention [so the presumptuous, sneering tone is very weird - why on earth would you formulate it as "Mr. X condemns Hamas, maybe he thinks Hamas sprang into existence like Minerva from the head of Zeus, on October 7! Yeah, that makes great sense, let me ask him and see if he admits it, then I `win' some argument online, whoopee for me!] Why wouldn't I have followed events in the region closely from watching the Six-Day War coverage as a fifteen year old student of politics and history in middle school, and then in college, and since then, etc. Isn't that what you did, more or less?
But seriously, you ask, IN EFFECT, "How do violent Islamo-fascists commit to joining up with a terrorist organization, become willing to engage in the mass murder of civilians - not just a few random "thrill killings," no, but the full magillah - and thus sufficiently depraved and bloodthirsty that they will murder and rape innocent civilians - neonates, children, on up to the most elderly, kidnap hundreds up them, torture many of them gleefully in a sense of how right and wonderfully fair and just it is to do these appalling acts, and be PROUD of it enough to publicly declare they want "October 7 over and over," is that it?
Jeez, I dunno, what kind of answer would satisfy you?
By all means, supply ANY kind of basic template that you think would suffice, fair enough?
Then I will be able to see if I can make any sense at all of this request, or come to my own conclusions.*
Compare: "Susanna, do you have any idea how serial killer Ted Bundy became Ted Bundy? "
Or - "OK, Trump's a vicious scoundrel and adjudicated as a rapist (with several dozen other sexual assault allegations unresolved - so far, anyway) - but do you know how he became that way? Do you think he just started out as a dedicated sociopathic rapist and all-around criminal fraudster? No! He had a rough childhood, lack of self-esteem" blah blah blah.
The stuff people post online about terrorist atrocities is perplexing, that's for sure.
^^^^^^ You really, really, really need to read this closely and think about it. Maybe you will decide you've made some pardonable theoretical mistakes based on an unfortunate lack of
sufficient reflection - that's possible, correct? That you could simply be ENTIRELY WELL-MEANING, sure, but just wrong in your main, most crucial conclusions?
It's not exactly unknown in the history of ideas, to see a "mass collective delusion" spread very widely, due to much too narrow a database and self-criticism, inter alia.
Sneering at sneering, it's a conceptual distinction that evades the likes of you, got it!
See also:
The paradox of tolerance states that if a society's practice of tolerance is inclusive of the intolerant, intolerance will ultimately dominate, eliminating the tolerant and the practice of tolerance with them. Karl Popper describes the paradox as arising from the self-contradictory idea that, in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.[2]
Proportionality in international law is not about equality of death or civilian suffering, or even about firepower returned being equal in sophistication or lethality to firepower received. Proportionality weighs the military necessity of an action against the suffering that the action might cause to enemy civilians in the vicinity. A review of expert opinion – none of which was written in relation to Israel – helps to clarify. [All emphases below added.]
Prof. Horst Fischer, Academic Director of the Institute for International Law of Peace and Armed Conflict at the Ruhr-Universität Bochum in Germany, and Adjunct Professor at Columbia University, wrote in The Crimes of War Project:
The principle of proportionality is embedded in almost every national legal system and underlies the international legal order. Its function in domestic law is to relate means to ends... In the conduct of war, when a party commits a lawful attack against a military objective, the principle of proportionality also comes into play whenever there is collateral damage, that is, civilian casualties or damage to a non-military objective... attacks are prohibited if they cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, or damage to civilian objects that is excessive in relation to the anticipated concrete and direct military advantage of the attack. This creates a permanent obligation for military commanders to consider the results of the attack compared to the advantage anticipated.
The reason I'm doing such a silly thing is because I scroll down the discussion and see what seems a contentious and angry thread. And feel a bit guilty because it started with my very emotional post. So I'll clarify, more dispassionately.
I'm responding here to my distrust of Netanyahu's motives and the sense, reinforced by Lucian's analysis of this specific incident, that the Gaza offensive has gone beyond destroying Hamas to extend to callous disregard for civilian life. And I have an ugly and growing suspicion that some of this misery is being dealt out as vengeance, on purpose. And that upsets me. I don't want to be associated with or be a part of that.
But that in no way coincides with anything less than total abhorrence of Hamas, their actions or their ideology. Or any support for the decolonization narrative. Whatever the arguments about Israel's origins are irrelevant to me; Israel now exists, people live there. And I get as upset about terrorist attacks on Israelis as I do about Israeli treatment of Palestinians and their illegal incursions into Palestinian land. It is possible for a person, me, to get upset about both.
I am accused by friends of being a bit naive. I do understand that sometimes wars are necessary, and, in wars, there is always tragic loss of life. But I think, even in wars, it is incumbent on us, as much as possible, to value all lives and feel that the loss of every life must to be accounted for, justified, in the eyes of God. I hope we can all agree on that.
The United States threatening to not use its veto power in the UN Security Council is not a lever I'd heard mentioned before. While I like the leverage, I wish it were available another way, one that did not leave the outcome of its use to whatever Security Council proposal we didn't nip in the bud. Biden's unilaterally dropping aid, however, is a tangent to that idea and it's a great move.
I seem to recall Obama ONCE refraining from using a UN veto to block something Israel's government didn't like, and Bibi threw a hissy fit. Possibly the Americans later tried to make it look like a mistake... deniability ... but the point was made, and things should never have gotten to that stage anyway, Uncle Sam needs to stop reflexively covering up Israeli misdeeds and also stop letting Bib yank us around like a dog on a chain.
In theory I agree. I don't think we've reflexively covered up Israel's misdeeds, however, so much as the calculus has always been that the bigger picture (ally, most democratic country in the MId East, etc.) required us to veto all (but for the one w/Obama?) Security Council votes that ran counter to Israeli governments' positions. That's not to say the calculus was always right, or correct, but imo it was more than simply reflexive, for what that's worth.
"Today he announced that the U.S. will soon begin air-dropping food aid and medical supplies to starving Palestinians in Gaza." / I read today of Israeli soldiers shooting (killing?) approximately 100 people who were trying to retrieve air-dropped food. I assumed it had come from the US. Apparently not. But Israeli soldiers or civilians did this to people scrambling for food.
Lucian, who controls the border crossing between Egypt and Gaza. In every thing I have read it is Egypt that allows or doesn’t allow people or aid to go back and forth. How does Israel control that crossing? I have done some research and it appears that no Arab country really wants a bunch of Palestinians to show up in their countries because they are a bunch of anal orifices (both). You will not find a single instance of the integration of Palestinians into the countries they have invaded. They are all in camps with strict controls on exiting and entering. Do the Israelis somehow control what goes on at the camps in Syria or Lebanon? Poor Jordan which was one of the only countries to try to help the Palestinians has become overrun by them. There are now more Palestinians in Jordan than native Jordanians. Probably the same with Lebanon, a country previously run by Christians and moderate Muslims. Now run by Palestinian terrorists. Still think the UN should buy the Sinai from Egypt for about $2 an acre. The oil on the property could help Palestinians build and run their new country. The Arab countries help the Palestinians to rebuild in the Sinai (with the biggest terrorist enabler, the Saudis, to provide most of the funds!) The NATO countries or any other country that has economic interests in having the canal stay open (still a mystery why we forced the Israelis, French, and Brits to abandon the Suez Canal in 1956 - would have solved a lot of future problems) to set up buffer along the Suez Canal to protect free passage of the canal from Saudi, Egyptian, and Palestinian terrorists. (Note Bene: every time I hear people talk about anti-Semitic comments, l hope they realize that Arabs, Palestinians, and Jews who stayed in the area are all Semites. Real shame these cousins can’t stop killing each other!
"I have done some research and it appears that no Arab country really wants a bunch of Palestinians to show up in their countries..."
Apparently you didn't do enough research.
Most Palestinian ancestors came to Jordan as Palestinian refugees between 1947 and 1967. Today, most Palestinians and their descendants in Jordan are fully naturalized, making Jordan the only Arab country to fully integrate the Palestinian refugees of 1948.
And regarding your misinformation about the Jordan population.
"Poor Jordan which was one of the only countries to try to help the Palestinians has become overrun by them. There are now more Palestinians in Jordan than native Jordanians."
The population of Jordan is 11,337,052 of which 3 million are Palestinians many of whom were born in Jordan.
I specifically mentioned Jordan as the only Arab country that has assimilated the Palestinians. To their regret, there are now more Palestinians in Jordan than there are native Jordanians! Pretty soon they will be taken over by Palestinian terrorists just like Lebanon was. Jordan would be the model for why all the other Arab countries keep Palestinians in camps strictly controlled by the host countries’ military (at least until Palestinian terrorists take over those countries too.) Perhaps you need to read better!
Yes and you specifically claimed among other things that there are more Palestinians in Jordan than there are Jordanians. then used that bit of misinformation to claim that Jordan is overrun by Palestinians. That's called a non-sequitur fallacy.
Can you prove that there's more Palestinians in Jordan than native born Jordans?
I have never understood why it has not been OK to critique Israel actions and policies. I believe that Iboth Israel and Palestine have a right to exist—the fact that one has rights should not mean that the other doesn’t. Hamas is a despicable group, and Israel should be reacting to their attack. Israel has long been a friend, but they should not be decimating Gaza, killing civilians, and allowing them to be without food, water, and shelter in order to destroy Hamas. And Israel should never have started the West Bank settlements—every time they add to them, they make the situation worse. Good for Biden for finally taking action.
One fairly important thing you don't address is that there is evidence that Hamas has taken the great majority of the aid that's gone into Gaza, and kept it. What do we do about that part of the problem? Is there anything to stop Hamas from taking control of the air drop sites and stealing that from the people who need it as well?
Do you know what Biden, and the UN (another corrupt org) should have done on Oct 8? First call out the raid of terrorist sadism conducted on Israeli soil by Hamas as a war crime. Then demand the return of all of the hostages. I’m sorry, but I cannot defend a country that uses rape as a tool of war. I simply can’t. Try to imagine your sister, your cousin, your friend, your child being brutally and relentlessly raped for four months while captive in Gaza. Then, imagine you’ve been forced to watch while they throw your baby into a how do I win and kill it. Do I think Netanyahu is anything other than the worst possible version of Trump? I do not, and I don’t approve of many of his policies toward the West Bank. But in this situation? I am astonished and disturbed by all of the attention given to helping make things better in Gaza while those young women are still being raped. Daily repeatedly with multiple men. I read an interview with a mother from a reputable publication, the Times of Israel, about a young woman who was in the first wave of exchanged hostages, who is being held by a regular family not Hamas, and was abused to the point that she came home with epilepsy. These are the people that everybody’s pouring out their hearts for. Not me.
Mofos don't have rules. Civilized folk must. Bibi and his right flank ain't civilized. They are barbarians in the same league as Hamas. Puts the IDF and Israelis including Arab-Israelis between a rock and a hard place. JSYK: barbarians are cowards.
Yes. Enough. Way past enough. Netanyahu, corrupt and cynical has lost what minuscule credibility he might have held, given he’s been clutching his power like a drunken Trump ogling his older daughter. We need to pull the children to the safety of our arms, keep them and innocents in this fight under our protection from indiscriminate blind murder.
BB played Biden. Lying SOB. promises in English thinking he can manipulate Americans. Different statements in Hebrew with his evil coalition and their plans to get rid of Palestinians . Disgusting. Time to put our foot down and join with the majority of Israelis who want him and his coalition gone.
Completely agree that with all our sophisticated weapons the last thing we need is troops in Gaza. Biden is finally starting to do what he has to do, we can no longer support Netanyahu when he's gone from a military response to a campaign of genocide.
I hope this works and Netanyahu doesn't screw it up! He's just as crazy as Trump!
Netanyahu is not “crazy” in the clinical sense. He’s off-the-charts arrogant, an imperious bully who still thinks that because of the Holocaust and centuries of antisemitism he and Israel have carte blanche to do any damned thing they want to do. I applaud Biden’s actions here, and I hope he does more on this line, but I guarantee you that BB, arrogant beyond all power to describe, will now work (probably is already doing this) behind the scenes, along with Russia and China (Who? Me?) to get Trump elected: a worshipful useful idiot, an insecure and pliable coward who cowtows to leaders with power. Like Putin, and Xi, and Kim. And Netanyahu.
Agree 100%. There's a very complex relationship between past history and current realities. If I were Israel, I wouldn't trust the western European powers, or the Russians, or the Arab countries, or anyone else either. The fate of Yitzhak Rabin, Anwar Sadat, and others who tried to be open to dialogue is not encouraging. I applaud Biden's actions too, and I'm (very cautiously) encouraged by the unwillingness of the other Arab states to go gung-ho for Hamas. (I suspect suspicion of Iran has something to do with it, but I hope they're also just sick of the instability and the continual drain on resources.)
Well stated. Good points.
"He already screwed it up"
Maybe he intentionally caused it. The War!
He knew of the Hamas invasion a full year in advance and in detail. He, like Trump is screwing up the democratic system of his country to stay out of jail. He has been shoring up Hamas for years, knowing he needs that threat to justify his fascisic rule.
Yep
The layers upon layers here will take years if not decades to sort out: the descendants of genocide victims becoming genocidal themselves, the symbiotic relationship between sworn enemies, the many decades of powers great and small using the statelessness of the Palestinians for their own purposes . . . Langston Hughes's question "What happens to a dream deferred?" is never far from my mind, nor are his hypothetical answers in the poem "Harlem": https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46548/harlem
You got that right Susanna. On one my shelves somewhere I have a big Collected Poems of Langston Hughes. I should leave it out for regular reference.
RR I heard that rumor but how do you know this?
It was published in reliable sources, shortly after Oct.7th. I remember Israeli security personel quotes and other documentation. The plan was intercepted and it detailed exactly how Hamas carried it out. Nothing in the hi-tech systems along that wall were reinforced or monitored. Heather might have even referred to that news. We can look through a few weeks of mid-October news.
Gawwwd…
Google "Did Israel know of the Hamas invasion a full year in advance" and you'll get multiple, credible sources on the issue.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html#:~:text=Israeli%20officials%20obtained%20Hamas%27s%20battle,for%20Hamas%20to%20carry%20out.
The article does say that IDF knew and blew it off. It does not say Bibi knew, however. No matter what, it’s a serious breach and all involved should he at the Hague!
Lucian, your effort to bring more clarity to a hopelessly blurry situation is more than welcome. Any statement Israel makes, or video or material it releases to bolster its preferred narrative has to be viewed with great suspicion, if not immediate disbelief. Which is not to say that Hamas is any less disingenuous. The ‘fog of war’ hides everything, but especially the truth. However, the needless suffering of the Gaza populace is beyond question, and Biden’s refusal thus far to stop the Israeli genocide makes him look weak, and Yahoo strong, aside from needlessly prolonging the bombing. Yes, it’s a complex political situation, but it always is where Israel and the Middle East are concerned. The moral high ground is there for America to take, but fear of driving American Jews into the Republican camp by challenging Yahoo the way he needs to be challenged has to be subordinated to appearing before the world as hypocrites for not using our power to help end the Israeli slaughter of the innocent in Gaza. This is a defining moment of American foreign policy, but if we want to be seen as the ‘good guys’ we have to behave like good guys, and until now we haven’t done that. Here’s hoping Biden and Co. have plans to escalate their intervention beyond the airlifting of humanitarian aid. We have to force Yahoo and the IDF to back off.
Dropping the food. Yes. People are already starving. More food please. But...Hamas slaughtered 1200 Israeli human beings. Israel, it seems, didn't think it was okay (for example) to chain up 10-20 children, douse them with gasoline and set them on fire and so we see what Israel's doing to Gaza. But, who are the innocent? British bombers laid waste to German cities in what was basically revenge for the Blitz. Who was innocent? The Nazis were the bad guys but in Germany, who were the innocent? American bombers laid waste to Japan until there were no more cities left to burn. At some point the cycle of hate and murder has to end. Hopefully, we are not in the beginning of WWIII but it's not looking good. Right now I don't believe there are any innocents. George Carlin was probably right: if you're alive and kicking, you're guilty as charged.
what a load a bs
Which part, and be specific.
Specifically, a word salad trying to justify the unjustifiable already speaks volumes. No need to waste time on its parts.
Wow, so you admit openly you have NOTHING, ok!
It's you Hamas-enabling types completely oblivious to the actual facts that are trying to `justify the unjustifiable' :
camera-uk.org/2024/02/22/channel-4-news-outdoes-hamas-with-its-gaza-casualty-propaganda/
First, Hamas does not distinguish between combatants and non-combatants. Nor does it account for those Palestinians killed by misfired rockets – which accounts for up to 20% of all Gaza rocket fire. Further, it’s been reported that roughly 11,000 of those 28,000 (reportedly) killed are Hamas fighters. This ratio of civilian to combatant casualties, argued renowned military historian Andrew Roberts, is exceptionally low in the history of urban warfare – especially considering Hamas’s human shield policy, which intentionally places fighters, weapons and and military infrastructure in civilian areas.
Further, John Spencer, Chair of Urban Warfare Studies at the Modern War Institute at West Point, has argued that “Israel has implemented more measures to prevent civilian casualties than any other military in the history of war”, even though such measures increase the risk to their own soldiers. Such measures, he adds, have never been undertaken by the US Army in similar situations.
camera-uk.org/2024/02/20/guardians-former-chief-editor-hamas-massacre-did-not-happen-in-a-vacuum/
Where the fuck did you get that information about the kids??
Oh, Marlene, I guess you really haven't followed the credible accounts of the atrocities and these are not even the worst, and having JUST MINUTES AGO discovered on this newsletter comments column you're the daughter of two Holocaust survivors - I urge you "on general humanistic psych principles a la Erich Fromm and Abraham Maslow" - do NOT investigate further, the hostage accounts on film, online, well, if Mengele's victims had survived, what would their accounts be like? HAMAS is arguably on the level of the most fanatical Nazis running fiendish "medical experiments," particularly in this October 7 episode. They were running one of the Hamas terrorists phoning his parents, an intercepted phone call, he is gloating, over the moon, because he "killed ten Jews with `my own hands,'" and this is to his PARENTS! The mentality is too much for the mainstream media accounts and "both sides are equally evil" moralizers, much less some of the utopians or hard-core anti-Semites who want a PERMANENT ceasefire to allow Hamas to reorganize for another massacre, no way that happens, it's delusional, Israel will totally "go it alone" before they would fall for that - it's an existential threat now, only way it ends is when Hamas is out of the picture, for a start.
Verbum sapientum.
Oh Richard, why do you have to be so condescending?
Your false analogies fall flat. You're ignoring crucial information such as Netanyahu's encouragement and use of Hamas for his own purposes up until the surprise Oct attack which might cause one to conclude that Netanyahu was complicit. "I guess you really haven't followed the credible accounts".
Moreover your ad hominem effort at labeling those who want a permanent ceasefire as anti-semites is growing old.
Yes, Hamas needs to be reduced to irrelevancy but killing its adherents along with innocent civilians who are mostly women and children won't kill the ideology. That can only happen through diplomacy rather than war. Israel is fast losing the high ground on the issue and its supporters are going down with the ship as well.
You see the idf lie about slaughtering people getting food and you still spread lies.
Btw, you start on April 1, 2023 and it looks like a classic "troll account," so thanks for the opportunity to educate you out of your probably pestiferous perambulations provoking persistent paranoia, Padre!
You mean the mob willing to engage in voluntary manslaughter of the truck drivers if it would
mean they could STEAL the food before it could be distributed, those people?
Richard Turnbull, J.D.
Richard’s Substack
18 mins ago
You do realize that the argument that "You are just repeating Israeli government dogma" is a total logic fail, an infamous conglomeration of several fallacies? It has ZERO substantial bearing on the TRUTH (or falsity!) of any given specific argument, not only that, who should we expect to be on the scene and most au courant with persuasive, cogent, lucid, relevant arguments and considerations about how an internationally designated terrorist state, Hamas's Gaza, attacked and murdered thousands of civilian citizens in cold blood, than the citizen's own state? Which undoubtedly includes thousands of the victims close and more distant blood kin?
You need to study logic and in particular, FALLACIES, so as to learn to avoid them, you wouldn't accept an argument like "But you're just repeating the Stratfordian dogma" in the Shakespeare Authorship Question discussions, you would demand a cogent alternative!*
"First, Hamas does not distinguish between combatants and non-combatants. Nor does it account for those Palestinians killed by misfired rockets – which accounts for up to 20% of all Gaza rocket fire. Further, it’s been reported that roughly 11,000 of those 28,000 (reportedly) killed are Hamas fighters. This ratio of civilian to combatant casualties, argued renowned military historian Andrew Roberts, is exceptionally low in the history of urban warfare – especially considering Hamas’s human shield policy, which intentionally places fighters, weapons and and military infrastructure in civilian areas.
Further, John Spencer, Chair of Urban Warfare Studies at the Modern War Institute at West Point, has argued that “Israel has implemented more measures to prevent civilian casualties than any other military in the history of war”, even though such measures increase the risk to their own soldiers. Such measures, he adds, have never been undertaken by the US Army in similar situations. "
Jeez Maureen, and you trust the PROVEN LIARS in the Gaza Health Ministry, plus still deny the UNRWA terrorist claims, AND put words in my mouth when OF COURSE I explicitly stated that not all the IDF statements are necessarily true, OF COURSE NOT, I want ALL the Hamas AND possible IDF war crimes dealt with as expeditiously as possible - notice the stark difference remains: HAMAS openly and intentionally murders civilians en masse, and gloats about it.
So far we do. not. know. WHERE all of these people with supposed "gun shot wounds" were fired upon, it's a "hot war zone" kept in that state by the HAMAS TERRORISTS who refuse to release their hostages - evidently I could claim YOU support allowing Hamas to engage in mass murder, mass rape, mass kidnapping, and then hide out behind their civilians and that's it, the VICTIMS of Hamas can't track down the perps and shoot at them?
No, I realize you are sincerely moved, as I am, by the suffering on both sides - I just refuse to go along with the preposterous bilge that would foreclose Israel's self-defense, that's all.
Because, for one thing, NO country would accept that - it's simply insane and it is NOT what the law of ARMED CONFLICT allows, so stop pretending it does, it allows proportional retaliation! *
We don't even know if the VIDEO FOOTAGE of them is from current hospitalizations, and we CERTAINLY don't know if the LYING and biased UN "observers" confabulated still more lies, either - it is far more likely almost all of the dead were TRAMPLED TO DEATH, rather that shot, plus you evidently totally fail to realize a mob doesn't magically acquire the right to pose an imminent threat of DEATH to the truck drivers trying to deliver them food, either!
This is ALL on Hamas - who could end the entire war PERMANENTLY with a unilateral ceasefire declaration, hostage release, renouncing mass murdering terrorism....
And 1200 dead on October 7 would be, proportionally taking account of the US population,
42, 000 IN ONE DAY, or imagine it happening in ONE DAY in Dublin (or Belfast in NI) - 5.15 million population for the Republic of Ireland, versus 9.8 million for Israel, at least over 2000 dead IN ONE DAY, and by marauding terrorists vowing to do it over and over!
Maureen you know as well as I do that the Republic's people would DEMAND that any neighboring entity, state, province, or a nearby island, that sent in terrorists who did anything close to that, with the rapes and other atrocities, would be relentlessly fought tooth and nail until Hell freezes over and then fought skating on the ice!
camera-uk.org/2024/02/22/channel-4-news-outdoes-hamas-with-its-gaza-casualty-propaganda/
camera-uk.org/2024/02/20/guardians-former-chief-editor-hamas-massacre-did-not-happen-in-a-vacuum/
First, Hamas does not distinguish between combatants and non-combatants. Nor does it account for those Palestinians killed by misfired rockets – which accounts for up to 20% of all Gaza rocket fire. Further, it’s been reported that roughly 11,000 of those 28,000 (reportedly) killed are Hamas fighters. This ratio of civilian to combatant casualties, argued renowned military historian Andrew Roberts, is exceptionally low in the history of urban warfare – especially considering Hamas’s human shield policy, which intentionally places fighters, weapons and and military infrastructure in civilian areas.
Further, John Spencer, Chair of Urban Warfare Studies at the Modern War Institute at West Point, has argued that “Israel has implemented more measures to prevent civilian casualties than any other military in the history of war”, even though such measures increase the risk to their own soldiers. Such measures, he adds, have never been undertaken by the US Army in similar situations."
* www.jewishpolicycenter.org/2023/10/30/dont-lecture-israel-about-proportionality/
Proportionality in international law is not about equality of death or civilian suffering, or even about firepower returned being equal in sophistication or lethality to firepower received. Proportionality weighs the military necessity of an action against the suffering that the action might cause to enemy civilians in the vicinity. A review of expert opinion – none of which was written in relation to Israel – helps to clarify. And each should be read in relation to Hamas crimes against Israeli civilians.
Prof. Horst Fischer, Academic Director of the Institute for International Law of Peace and Armed Conflict at the Ruhr-Universität Bochum in Germany, and Adjunct Professor at Columbia University, wrote in The Crimes of War Project:
The principle of proportionality is embedded in almost every national legal system and underlies the international legal order… When a party commits a lawful attack against a military objective, the principle of proportionality also comes into play whenever there is collateral damage, that is, civilian casualties or damage to a non-military objective… attacks are prohibited if they cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, or damage to civilian objects that is excessive in relation to the anticipated concrete and direct military advantage of the attack. This creates a permanent obligation for military commanders to consider the results of the attack compared to the advantage anticipated.
Exactly as Israel does when it drops leaflets warning civilians of an impending attack and aborts missions after finding civilians used as human shields on rooftops."
*www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJ72Ew1ujlk
Mark Twain's "Is Shakespeare Dead?" with Keir Cutler, PhD
Take your meds, man. Be Well and Bon Chance
From the outside, Hamas looks like yet another gang of misogynist sh*ts. Unfortunately, so does the IDF, and I expect better from the IDF. How does what Hamas did justify what Israel is doing?
Revenge but be careful with facts in the fog of war
Yes, the time for Biden to act is yesterday. I have no trust in Nitwityahoo and think he is disingenuous and drunk with power.
Amen, Lucian.
In the late 1940's my grandmother used to ask, sometimes rhetorically, sometimes not, sometimes humorously, about a piece of news was, "Is it good for the Jews?" The answer in Israel today is, "No, bubbe."
Biden finally had to act. But I it's far too little, way too late.
I have a shattered feeling. No American president has been a truer friend to the Jewish people than Joe Biden. No one could be more passionately opposed to antisemitism, or a more passionate supporter of the right of Jews to their own country and the right of Israel to defend itself. And Netanyahu used this to make a sucker out of him. Biden supported the campaign to destroy Hamas and it ended up being, in reality, a brutal ethnic cleansing of the Gaza strip. The horrors of it, bombings, starvation, disease, causing the death of tens of thousands of civilians. Tens of thousands of innocent people. Biden's reward for his love of the Jewish people is...he has this blood on his hands. We all do. All American Jews do. All Americans do. We were a part of it. We could have withdrawn our support of it. We could have put our big feet down and stopped it. Shame. Shame on all of us.
“No American President has been a truer friend to the Jewish people than Joe Biden.” That is not a true statement. Mostly all of our Presidents, including the 91 counts of convictions guy, have been a friend to Israel and that dates back to decades. I want to remind you that HAMAS is the “purveyor” of kidnapping, rape, and murders of innocent children, men and women, mostly peace lovers. The US was providing security for the Israeli dome that fights air and rocket attacks. I don’t believe anyone anticipated Bibi’s crazy death wish that he has now committed. Yes, he and the Likud Party should be held and convicted by The Hague for their despicable acts but what about HAMAS?? Where are the rest of the hostages? Some are American and Biden has had to play a very delicate hand in getting them out safely. This is what people are not talking about. Biden does not have blood on his hands and I resent that statement, but Bibi Netanyahu and HAMAS do.
A little boy, around the age of 10, cried out as blood splatter was all over him, "What have I done?" This haunts me daily. Biden needs to do more!! The suffering of innocent people needs to stop! It is time for Biden to do what is right and not worry about his polling. I think he would still prevail because Trump is America's Netanyahu. I pray for peace for Israel and Palestine. May it come soon!
Wow, and it WOULD stop if the the HAMAS terrorists declared a unilateral ceasefire, released all their hostages, etc.
As it is they won't even supply the names of the kidnap victims. Hamas has launched over 15,000 missiles, mortars, drones and other attacks INTO ISRAEL since October 7, let that sink in, too.
This is what happens when a terrorist gangster government sites all of its crucial military infrastructure it possibly can IN AND AROUND HOSPTALS, SCHOOLS, MOSQUES, CHURCHES, APARTMENT BLOCKS, SHOPPING CENTERS, PRIVATE HOMES, LIBRARIES - oh wait, no libraries allowed, no free speech allowed, no free and fair elections allowed, no opposition Palestinian parties allowed, no women's rights allowed (ESPECIALLY that!) - just human shields, human sacrifices, that's all good...
https://americandreaming.substack.com/p/no-winning-a-war-isnt-genocide
Richard, do you have any idea of how Hamas became Hamas? Did your history of the region start with 7 October? If so, please go back at least to 1948, and -- even better -- to the Sykes-Picot Agreement (1916) and the Balfour Declaration (1917).
Yeah Susanna, I have studied their history extensively, and the specific history you mention [so the presumptuous, sneering tone is very weird - why on earth would you formulate it as "Mr. X condemns Hamas, maybe he thinks Hamas sprang into existence like Minerva from the head of Zeus, on October 7! Yeah, that makes great sense, let me ask him and see if he admits it, then I `win' some argument online, whoopee for me!] Why wouldn't I have followed events in the region closely from watching the Six-Day War coverage as a fifteen year old student of politics and history in middle school, and then in college, and since then, etc. Isn't that what you did, more or less?
But seriously, you ask, IN EFFECT, "How do violent Islamo-fascists commit to joining up with a terrorist organization, become willing to engage in the mass murder of civilians - not just a few random "thrill killings," no, but the full magillah - and thus sufficiently depraved and bloodthirsty that they will murder and rape innocent civilians - neonates, children, on up to the most elderly, kidnap hundreds up them, torture many of them gleefully in a sense of how right and wonderfully fair and just it is to do these appalling acts, and be PROUD of it enough to publicly declare they want "October 7 over and over," is that it?
Jeez, I dunno, what kind of answer would satisfy you?
By all means, supply ANY kind of basic template that you think would suffice, fair enough?
Then I will be able to see if I can make any sense at all of this request, or come to my own conclusions.*
Compare: "Susanna, do you have any idea how serial killer Ted Bundy became Ted Bundy? "
Or - "OK, Trump's a vicious scoundrel and adjudicated as a rapist (with several dozen other sexual assault allegations unresolved - so far, anyway) - but do you know how he became that way? Do you think he just started out as a dedicated sociopathic rapist and all-around criminal fraudster? No! He had a rough childhood, lack of self-esteem" blah blah blah.
The stuff people post online about terrorist atrocities is perplexing, that's for sure.
*https://camera-uk.org/2024/02/06/can-there-be-a-decent-pro-palestinian-left/
^^^^^^ You really, really, really need to read this closely and think about it. Maybe you will decide you've made some pardonable theoretical mistakes based on an unfortunate lack of
sufficient reflection - that's possible, correct? That you could simply be ENTIRELY WELL-MEANING, sure, but just wrong in your main, most crucial conclusions?
It's not exactly unknown in the history of ideas, to see a "mass collective delusion" spread very widely, due to much too narrow a database and self-criticism, inter alia.
"so the presumptuous, sneering tone is very weird "
You definitely know whereof you speak given your use of the same.
Sneering at sneering, it's a conceptual distinction that evades the likes of you, got it!
See also:
The paradox of tolerance states that if a society's practice of tolerance is inclusive of the intolerant, intolerance will ultimately dominate, eliminating the tolerant and the practice of tolerance with them. Karl Popper describes the paradox as arising from the self-contradictory idea that, in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.[2]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
And THIS, which you people seem to relentlessly avoid comprehending:
www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4462/proportionality-doctrine
Proportionality in international law is not about equality of death or civilian suffering, or even about firepower returned being equal in sophistication or lethality to firepower received. Proportionality weighs the military necessity of an action against the suffering that the action might cause to enemy civilians in the vicinity. A review of expert opinion – none of which was written in relation to Israel – helps to clarify. [All emphases below added.]
Prof. Horst Fischer, Academic Director of the Institute for International Law of Peace and Armed Conflict at the Ruhr-Universität Bochum in Germany, and Adjunct Professor at Columbia University, wrote in The Crimes of War Project:
The principle of proportionality is embedded in almost every national legal system and underlies the international legal order. Its function in domestic law is to relate means to ends... In the conduct of war, when a party commits a lawful attack against a military objective, the principle of proportionality also comes into play whenever there is collateral damage, that is, civilian casualties or damage to a non-military objective... attacks are prohibited if they cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, or damage to civilian objects that is excessive in relation to the anticipated concrete and direct military advantage of the attack. This creates a permanent obligation for military commanders to consider the results of the attack compared to the advantage anticipated.
Wow. I can write a reply to my own post!
The reason I'm doing such a silly thing is because I scroll down the discussion and see what seems a contentious and angry thread. And feel a bit guilty because it started with my very emotional post. So I'll clarify, more dispassionately.
I'm responding here to my distrust of Netanyahu's motives and the sense, reinforced by Lucian's analysis of this specific incident, that the Gaza offensive has gone beyond destroying Hamas to extend to callous disregard for civilian life. And I have an ugly and growing suspicion that some of this misery is being dealt out as vengeance, on purpose. And that upsets me. I don't want to be associated with or be a part of that.
But that in no way coincides with anything less than total abhorrence of Hamas, their actions or their ideology. Or any support for the decolonization narrative. Whatever the arguments about Israel's origins are irrelevant to me; Israel now exists, people live there. And I get as upset about terrorist attacks on Israelis as I do about Israeli treatment of Palestinians and their illegal incursions into Palestinian land. It is possible for a person, me, to get upset about both.
I am accused by friends of being a bit naive. I do understand that sometimes wars are necessary, and, in wars, there is always tragic loss of life. But I think, even in wars, it is incumbent on us, as much as possible, to value all lives and feel that the loss of every life must to be accounted for, justified, in the eyes of God. I hope we can all agree on that.
The United States threatening to not use its veto power in the UN Security Council is not a lever I'd heard mentioned before. While I like the leverage, I wish it were available another way, one that did not leave the outcome of its use to whatever Security Council proposal we didn't nip in the bud. Biden's unilaterally dropping aid, however, is a tangent to that idea and it's a great move.
I seem to recall Obama ONCE refraining from using a UN veto to block something Israel's government didn't like, and Bibi threw a hissy fit. Possibly the Americans later tried to make it look like a mistake... deniability ... but the point was made, and things should never have gotten to that stage anyway, Uncle Sam needs to stop reflexively covering up Israeli misdeeds and also stop letting Bib yank us around like a dog on a chain.
In theory I agree. I don't think we've reflexively covered up Israel's misdeeds, however, so much as the calculus has always been that the bigger picture (ally, most democratic country in the MId East, etc.) required us to veto all (but for the one w/Obama?) Security Council votes that ran counter to Israeli governments' positions. That's not to say the calculus was always right, or correct, but imo it was more than simply reflexive, for what that's worth.
Bliken finally found a PR moment where Biden could get critical.
Or Jake Sullivan ...
"Today he announced that the U.S. will soon begin air-dropping food aid and medical supplies to starving Palestinians in Gaza." / I read today of Israeli soldiers shooting (killing?) approximately 100 people who were trying to retrieve air-dropped food. I assumed it had come from the US. Apparently not. But Israeli soldiers or civilians did this to people scrambling for food.
Lucian, who controls the border crossing between Egypt and Gaza. In every thing I have read it is Egypt that allows or doesn’t allow people or aid to go back and forth. How does Israel control that crossing? I have done some research and it appears that no Arab country really wants a bunch of Palestinians to show up in their countries because they are a bunch of anal orifices (both). You will not find a single instance of the integration of Palestinians into the countries they have invaded. They are all in camps with strict controls on exiting and entering. Do the Israelis somehow control what goes on at the camps in Syria or Lebanon? Poor Jordan which was one of the only countries to try to help the Palestinians has become overrun by them. There are now more Palestinians in Jordan than native Jordanians. Probably the same with Lebanon, a country previously run by Christians and moderate Muslims. Now run by Palestinian terrorists. Still think the UN should buy the Sinai from Egypt for about $2 an acre. The oil on the property could help Palestinians build and run their new country. The Arab countries help the Palestinians to rebuild in the Sinai (with the biggest terrorist enabler, the Saudis, to provide most of the funds!) The NATO countries or any other country that has economic interests in having the canal stay open (still a mystery why we forced the Israelis, French, and Brits to abandon the Suez Canal in 1956 - would have solved a lot of future problems) to set up buffer along the Suez Canal to protect free passage of the canal from Saudi, Egyptian, and Palestinian terrorists. (Note Bene: every time I hear people talk about anti-Semitic comments, l hope they realize that Arabs, Palestinians, and Jews who stayed in the area are all Semites. Real shame these cousins can’t stop killing each other!
"I have done some research and it appears that no Arab country really wants a bunch of Palestinians to show up in their countries..."
Apparently you didn't do enough research.
Most Palestinian ancestors came to Jordan as Palestinian refugees between 1947 and 1967. Today, most Palestinians and their descendants in Jordan are fully naturalized, making Jordan the only Arab country to fully integrate the Palestinian refugees of 1948.
And regarding your misinformation about the Jordan population.
"Poor Jordan which was one of the only countries to try to help the Palestinians has become overrun by them. There are now more Palestinians in Jordan than native Jordanians."
The population of Jordan is 11,337,052 of which 3 million are Palestinians many of whom were born in Jordan.
I specifically mentioned Jordan as the only Arab country that has assimilated the Palestinians. To their regret, there are now more Palestinians in Jordan than there are native Jordanians! Pretty soon they will be taken over by Palestinian terrorists just like Lebanon was. Jordan would be the model for why all the other Arab countries keep Palestinians in camps strictly controlled by the host countries’ military (at least until Palestinian terrorists take over those countries too.) Perhaps you need to read better!
Yes and you specifically claimed among other things that there are more Palestinians in Jordan than there are Jordanians. then used that bit of misinformation to claim that Jordan is overrun by Palestinians. That's called a non-sequitur fallacy.
Can you prove that there's more Palestinians in Jordan than native born Jordans?
Shout this from the top of a mountain until everyone hears
I have never understood why it has not been OK to critique Israel actions and policies. I believe that Iboth Israel and Palestine have a right to exist—the fact that one has rights should not mean that the other doesn’t. Hamas is a despicable group, and Israel should be reacting to their attack. Israel has long been a friend, but they should not be decimating Gaza, killing civilians, and allowing them to be without food, water, and shelter in order to destroy Hamas. And Israel should never have started the West Bank settlements—every time they add to them, they make the situation worse. Good for Biden for finally taking action.
One fairly important thing you don't address is that there is evidence that Hamas has taken the great majority of the aid that's gone into Gaza, and kept it. What do we do about that part of the problem? Is there anything to stop Hamas from taking control of the air drop sites and stealing that from the people who need it as well?
Do you know what Biden, and the UN (another corrupt org) should have done on Oct 8? First call out the raid of terrorist sadism conducted on Israeli soil by Hamas as a war crime. Then demand the return of all of the hostages. I’m sorry, but I cannot defend a country that uses rape as a tool of war. I simply can’t. Try to imagine your sister, your cousin, your friend, your child being brutally and relentlessly raped for four months while captive in Gaza. Then, imagine you’ve been forced to watch while they throw your baby into a how do I win and kill it. Do I think Netanyahu is anything other than the worst possible version of Trump? I do not, and I don’t approve of many of his policies toward the West Bank. But in this situation? I am astonished and disturbed by all of the attention given to helping make things better in Gaza while those young women are still being raped. Daily repeatedly with multiple men. I read an interview with a mother from a reputable publication, the Times of Israel, about a young woman who was in the first wave of exchanged hostages, who is being held by a regular family not Hamas, and was abused to the point that she came home with epilepsy. These are the people that everybody’s pouring out their hearts for. Not me.
Mofos don't have rules. Civilized folk must. Bibi and his right flank ain't civilized. They are barbarians in the same league as Hamas. Puts the IDF and Israelis including Arab-Israelis between a rock and a hard place. JSYK: barbarians are cowards.
Hamas is not a country.