The normalization of deviance has pushed our political and legal system to the breaking point. New York Supreme Court Judge Juan Marchan is a model judge who is behaved admirably in this most difficult of trials. Had I been on the bench trying Trump's case he'd be in a cell in Rikers Island viewing the proceedings on remote video. What Judge Marchan has accomplished so far as been above and beyond the call of duty.
This does not help the rule of law. It is a form of intimidation to the institution of the judiciary itself. I find myself hoping that Donald Trump will miscalculate, and the next time he harasses the court and members of the jury, he ends up in jail. I'm not sure that that would be a propaganda victory for Trump or the MAGAhats. It will be a victory for the rule of law. Trump is angling to create sufficient disruption that the court will declare a mistrial. That prospect should be dismissed out of hand. He is on trial, he is responsible for his conduct; and if he continues to behave irresponsibly, he should be subjected to whatever "timeout" is necessary to remind him who was in charge of these proceedings
In the meantime, Judge Marchan should take away Trump's phone, and access to the digital world. A criminal defendant who has abused his privileges inside and outside of court, should be required to 'go dark'. He has no intrinsic right to communicate about his case with his followers around the world. As a defendant, he has a right to legal counsel. He has no right of publicity, since he appears to abuse whatever tolerance of the court has allowed him so far.
Treat them as if he were one of those defendants in custody in Guantánamo Bay. They do not have the luxury of a worldwide audience hungering for whatever they have to say about the people who have them in custody. Donald Trump is no less of the terrorist and they are. He should be treated as such.
I agree with all that you said, but for the point about confiscating his phone. That wojld be unconstitutional.
In his scrupulous observation of the law Judge Merchan can do no more than fine or incarcerate any defendant whom he finds in contempt of his court's orders.
As he has clearly stated, his hands are tied and actions limited. He is unable to otherwise limit the defendant's liberty or free speech, especially one who is campaigning for an election. BUT I'm sure Judge Merchan is now waiting for Trump to put both feet over the red line he has obviosly marked and, if he does, then we will see the judicial equivalent of a trapdoor spider pounce.
*edit* Corrected my erroneous spelling of Judge Juan Merchan's name.
I do not think confiscating his phone while incarcerated would be a violation of his right to free speech. He would have access to a pay phone if necessary, and why would it be if he is incarcerated? Unless he needed to speak to his lawyers, which could be done in person. His needs would be provided for, and he would regain the use of his phone when he is released. He has received enough 'special consideration' already.
While incarcerated, yes. However, confiscating devices and forbidding internet access to an unconvicted defendant who still retains his liberty and the presumption of innocence before the court, without strong precedent might risk grounds for a successful appeal overturning any verdict. An outcome this judge appears to be taking every step to avoid.
Does "free speech" guarantee one access to the various means of amplifying one's speech? I don't think so. And as long as pay phones are available, I'm not at all sure Trump's cell phone is constitutionally protected. My speech is protected by the 1st Amendment, but that doesn't give me the right to, e.g., a photocopier or an internet connection, to spread that speech far and wide. Not even freedom of the press gives me that. As the journalist A. J. Liebling so famously said, "Freedom of the press is guaranteed only to those who own one."
I believe the Fourteenth Amendment explicitly prohibits states from violating an individual's rights of due process and equal protection and, this case being held within the jurisdiction of a New York state court, a decision to so restrict the rights of a defendant without due process would offer opportunity to appeal. Again, the very situation that Judge Merchan appears to be carefully avoiding.
However, I am only qualified to give personal opinions, not legal ones, so there is that.
Besides, the Trumplethinskin could simply have a new phone purchased and get a minion to operate it for him, downloading all of the old ones data that is backed up in the cloud, with himself shouting at it on speaker mode.
Thanks for reply, but I'm still curious: which of Trump's rights do you think are being violated? I'm not a lawyer either, but it still seems a stretch. Trump is getting more consideration from the bench than the overwhelming majority of defendants, partly out of deference to his former position but (I'm guessing) mostly because he throws public tantrums when crossed and people may get hurt as a result.
None, at this time. The opinion I was expressing in my first reply to Arthur's post was I believe that preemptively "confiscating his phone would be unconstitutional."
Are people in holding cells (generally defendants not yet convicted--that's why they are IN a court house cell) allowed cell phones while in them?? That would seem to me to be the basic criteria to look at.
He’s already had way too much deference. Deference breeds contempt and increases his already huge sense of personal entitlement. He’s a citizen just like the rest of us. He’s not royalty. He’s a traitorous, spoiled PoS. Put him in jail and be done.
Agree 1,000% with Mr. Holeman. This piece of shit— let’s call it what it is— is a loathsome, spoiled whiner who has, in fact, been given far more latitude than you or I would receive in any courtroom. Yet he complains about unfairness—- (a trait common to all psychopaths, by the way, is a need for pity, believe it or not). Judge Merchan is in the most tricky, delicate, and possibly dangerous position of anyone in this country right now, and he is doing a masterful job. The loathsome Pumpkinhead traitor is discovering, to his fury, that the laws of this country DO apply to him… though he does not actually ever “learn” anything and will continue to rant and whine and complain about unfairness. He is giving our system of laws a stress test test unlike any ever seen before. Even mafia dons had no hordes of rabid, violent followers like this putrid specimen, so there is true danger here. (Though I suspect the wiser among them, if that isn’t a contradiction in terms, have seen their 1/6 colleagues jailed and may be having second thoughts about violence. But it only takes one crackpot.). The raging, bawling spoiled brat should be put in the slammer for 24 hours to get a taste of what could happen again… and again… if he can’t keep his disgusting mouth shut.
What I'd like to know, and have not been able to ascertain, is how set in stone this Secret Service benefit is (that is constantly brought up in these sort of discussions). How is it authorized? What would be required to loosen or undo it?
I'd frankly like to see Biden revoking whatever special Secret Service perks Drumpf keeps riding on, at taxpayer expense, while he's a criminal defendant.
This issue keeps coming up as a sort of shield magically protecting Drumpf (again and again) from facing the same justice you or I would if we were on trial for such crimes.
IMO he's entitled to it now. My question is whether he's entitled to it once he's convicted and incarcerated. If he is, that in effect forces the Secret Service to spend time in prison even if they haven't been convicted of anything. One might argue that prison employees are in the same category, but they signed up for those jobs in full knowledge (one hopes) of what they involve, and they're getting paid for being there.
Once again, we're in uncharted territory. There's no precedent for this.
P.S. I'm not so clueless that I think the prison guards are enough to protect Prisoner Trump, even if they're all lifelong Republicans.
Delicious! No tv. No phone. No dye. … LATER Really, the big liar's response to the eye-to-eye warning from Merchan Monday left me feeling djt had previously thought of jail only in terms of political advantage. I think the way Merchan addressed him had a sobering effect. He envisioned the inside of a jail cell for the first time.
Don’t forget the diaper detail, prison shower, and no makeup and hairdresser, Lawrence O’Donnell last week talked about how from behind you can see under whatever he has on his head, that he’s as bald as a baby’s bottom. The people who work in jails have eyes, this should be a lot of fun. Talk about him having his head up his own ass, you couldn’t make this up, nobody would believe you. 🤷♂️
As delicious as the sight of the orange turd in an orange jumpsuit picking up trash along the FDR expressway may be, Merchan doesn't have that option under the law. It's a fine or jail, nothin' else. Plus, the MAGA mouth-breathers would think he's a hero for doing unfairly imposed service by a communist judge. Poor Merchan, he really is between a turd and a hard place.
You may be right but my guess is he has mixed feelings. He would be placing himself voluntarily into a situation where he has no real control. That I'm sure he hates.
I read somewhere today, that his campaign fund-raisers figure that he could harvest as much as 10 million from his clueless supporters for every night he had to spend in jail.
OF COURSE Trump is angling for a (very brief, he hopes) stint in jail to rile up his faithful or, better yet--to Trump, anyway--to create such disruption as to cause a mistrial to be declared.
Promises promises, Lucian! I think all of us, collectively, should be summoning all of the gods to make sure that he violates the rules for the 11th time and is placed in a glass cage where we can observe him but he can’t see anyone. He would only be allowed to hear the trial. It will be very interesting to see if he can keep his mouth shut when and if Michael Cohen or Stormy Daniels testifies.
My guess is he won't be able to restrain himself. He seems to have no impulse control...that's provided by the people around him.....and he won't listen to his lawyers. Ivanka and Hope and several other used to provide that control....but they're not present any longer. I doubt that his SS detail will be adequate stand-ins.
Yesterday Jonathan Alter published an op-ed in the Washington Post arguing that incarceration was exactly what Trump wants, he will play the martyr card to the extreme, and the Secret Service might find some reason to object, and do we really want armed Secret Service agents inside a prison, so...instead of incarceration, order Trump to pick up trash in various NYC parks on days off from the courtroom. Orange jumpsuit and trash bag, and because he is too fat and out of shape to bend over, those long grabbers so he can reach the trash. The humiliation because of the public spectacle would be worse for Trump than a night in the holding cell, and the Secret Service could easily continue to do their jobs of protecting his fat ass. I love the idea, but I'd rather see him picking up trash along the West Side Highway or the BQE than in the bucolic confines of Central Park.
Obviously Donald should be booked and housed at Rikers in Open population including weight lifting and open space areas.. ok wishfull thinking about spotters at the bench press apparatus.
Sadly I'm extremely concerned that 74 plus million idiots and billionaires that have the oil and white Supremacists and religions kooks are going to make Trump president, AGAIN.
There are no gods that can save us except sane voters at the polls.
True, or perhaps Dumbo stood on the side of the squat rack when he was told not to, and the guy under the bar ‘accidentally’ tilted the bar while unracking it, and whoopsie, those darn plates just slid right off, right onto Dumbo Donny’s head. What a shame!
We can only hope, but I doubt the "hair"dressers and ass wipers would be allowed in jail. That reality will likely keep him muzzled. Do they even have diaper changing facilities in Rikers?
My thoughts exactly. His keepers, hair stylists, make-up appliers, diaper changers, diet coke providers, etc. would not be available. I doubt he wants that.
I don't doubt that just having his real weight become public info at booking will probably keep him in line, barring brain farts which may be inevitable for the poor sod.
Merchant will never sentence him to hard time for three good reasons;
First, and foremost, he is not going to hand Trump another issue on which to appeal his verdict and sentence.
Second, he knows putting Trump away will be exactly what TRump wants so he can use it in his political campaign. No need to add fuel to the fire.
Third, he can find him in contempt and simply delay the sentencing until after this trial. My bet is IF Trump is found guility he will be sentenced on multiple counts in addition to the core charges.
Merchant is doing his best to keep this train on the tracks given most unique circumstances. Let's stop fantasizing about Trump behind bars until he is.
Follow the latest developments in Trump's election interference case with this interactive relationship map (updated with today's May 6th posts by Lucian and Joyce Vance).
I'm probably not the only one who suspects that most of the gutless Republicans in Congress hope that Trump will be put away. I bet the smarter members of the Project 2025 cohort are wishing the same, even if it means they can't immediately institute their anti-democratic agenda. Trump is a wild, wild card. He has power over "the masses" that they can't dream of, and they're clearly deeply suspicious of anyone outside their elite circles. Since Trump is old and not exactly a picture of health, they're probably counting on him exiting stage right once they're on the way to implementing their plans.
The normalization of deviance has pushed our political and legal system to the breaking point. New York Supreme Court Judge Juan Marchan is a model judge who is behaved admirably in this most difficult of trials. Had I been on the bench trying Trump's case he'd be in a cell in Rikers Island viewing the proceedings on remote video. What Judge Marchan has accomplished so far as been above and beyond the call of duty.
This does not help the rule of law. It is a form of intimidation to the institution of the judiciary itself. I find myself hoping that Donald Trump will miscalculate, and the next time he harasses the court and members of the jury, he ends up in jail. I'm not sure that that would be a propaganda victory for Trump or the MAGAhats. It will be a victory for the rule of law. Trump is angling to create sufficient disruption that the court will declare a mistrial. That prospect should be dismissed out of hand. He is on trial, he is responsible for his conduct; and if he continues to behave irresponsibly, he should be subjected to whatever "timeout" is necessary to remind him who was in charge of these proceedings
In the meantime, Judge Marchan should take away Trump's phone, and access to the digital world. A criminal defendant who has abused his privileges inside and outside of court, should be required to 'go dark'. He has no intrinsic right to communicate about his case with his followers around the world. As a defendant, he has a right to legal counsel. He has no right of publicity, since he appears to abuse whatever tolerance of the court has allowed him so far.
Treat them as if he were one of those defendants in custody in Guantánamo Bay. They do not have the luxury of a worldwide audience hungering for whatever they have to say about the people who have them in custody. Donald Trump is no less of the terrorist and they are. He should be treated as such.
I agree with all that you said, but for the point about confiscating his phone. That wojld be unconstitutional.
In his scrupulous observation of the law Judge Merchan can do no more than fine or incarcerate any defendant whom he finds in contempt of his court's orders.
As he has clearly stated, his hands are tied and actions limited. He is unable to otherwise limit the defendant's liberty or free speech, especially one who is campaigning for an election. BUT I'm sure Judge Merchan is now waiting for Trump to put both feet over the red line he has obviosly marked and, if he does, then we will see the judicial equivalent of a trapdoor spider pounce.
*edit* Corrected my erroneous spelling of Judge Juan Merchan's name.
I do not think confiscating his phone while incarcerated would be a violation of his right to free speech. He would have access to a pay phone if necessary, and why would it be if he is incarcerated? Unless he needed to speak to his lawyers, which could be done in person. His needs would be provided for, and he would regain the use of his phone when he is released. He has received enough 'special consideration' already.
While incarcerated, yes. However, confiscating devices and forbidding internet access to an unconvicted defendant who still retains his liberty and the presumption of innocence before the court, without strong precedent might risk grounds for a successful appeal overturning any verdict. An outcome this judge appears to be taking every step to avoid.
Probably not.
Does "free speech" guarantee one access to the various means of amplifying one's speech? I don't think so. And as long as pay phones are available, I'm not at all sure Trump's cell phone is constitutionally protected. My speech is protected by the 1st Amendment, but that doesn't give me the right to, e.g., a photocopier or an internet connection, to spread that speech far and wide. Not even freedom of the press gives me that. As the journalist A. J. Liebling so famously said, "Freedom of the press is guaranteed only to those who own one."
I believe the Fourteenth Amendment explicitly prohibits states from violating an individual's rights of due process and equal protection and, this case being held within the jurisdiction of a New York state court, a decision to so restrict the rights of a defendant without due process would offer opportunity to appeal. Again, the very situation that Judge Merchan appears to be carefully avoiding.
However, I am only qualified to give personal opinions, not legal ones, so there is that.
Besides, the Trumplethinskin could simply have a new phone purchased and get a minion to operate it for him, downloading all of the old ones data that is backed up in the cloud, with himself shouting at it on speaker mode.
Thanks for reply, but I'm still curious: which of Trump's rights do you think are being violated? I'm not a lawyer either, but it still seems a stretch. Trump is getting more consideration from the bench than the overwhelming majority of defendants, partly out of deference to his former position but (I'm guessing) mostly because he throws public tantrums when crossed and people may get hurt as a result.
None, at this time. The opinion I was expressing in my first reply to Arthur's post was I believe that preemptively "confiscating his phone would be unconstitutional."
Are people in holding cells (generally defendants not yet convicted--that's why they are IN a court house cell) allowed cell phones while in them?? That would seem to me to be the basic criteria to look at.
Nope. Rights have limits...none are absolute. For instance, rights can be forfeit by bad or unlawful behavior.
I couldn’t agree with you more.
He’s already had way too much deference. Deference breeds contempt and increases his already huge sense of personal entitlement. He’s a citizen just like the rest of us. He’s not royalty. He’s a traitorous, spoiled PoS. Put him in jail and be done.
Agree 1,000% with Mr. Holeman. This piece of shit— let’s call it what it is— is a loathsome, spoiled whiner who has, in fact, been given far more latitude than you or I would receive in any courtroom. Yet he complains about unfairness—- (a trait common to all psychopaths, by the way, is a need for pity, believe it or not). Judge Merchan is in the most tricky, delicate, and possibly dangerous position of anyone in this country right now, and he is doing a masterful job. The loathsome Pumpkinhead traitor is discovering, to his fury, that the laws of this country DO apply to him… though he does not actually ever “learn” anything and will continue to rant and whine and complain about unfairness. He is giving our system of laws a stress test test unlike any ever seen before. Even mafia dons had no hordes of rabid, violent followers like this putrid specimen, so there is true danger here. (Though I suspect the wiser among them, if that isn’t a contradiction in terms, have seen their 1/6 colleagues jailed and may be having second thoughts about violence. But it only takes one crackpot.). The raging, bawling spoiled brat should be put in the slammer for 24 hours to get a taste of what could happen again… and again… if he can’t keep his disgusting mouth shut.
What I'd like to know, and have not been able to ascertain, is how set in stone this Secret Service benefit is (that is constantly brought up in these sort of discussions). How is it authorized? What would be required to loosen or undo it?
I'd frankly like to see Biden revoking whatever special Secret Service perks Drumpf keeps riding on, at taxpayer expense, while he's a criminal defendant.
This issue keeps coming up as a sort of shield magically protecting Drumpf (again and again) from facing the same justice you or I would if we were on trial for such crimes.
The authority for the Secret Service to provide protection to former presidents is granted by the Former Presidents Act and 18 U.S.C. 3056.
It would probably take an Act of Congress to negate that, but who has the time?
Thanks for the enlightenment! So we know Congress will never act on this; too bad Biden can't/won't do it thru an executive action.
IMO he's entitled to it now. My question is whether he's entitled to it once he's convicted and incarcerated. If he is, that in effect forces the Secret Service to spend time in prison even if they haven't been convicted of anything. One might argue that prison employees are in the same category, but they signed up for those jobs in full knowledge (one hopes) of what they involve, and they're getting paid for being there.
Once again, we're in uncharted territory. There's no precedent for this.
P.S. I'm not so clueless that I think the prison guards are enough to protect Prisoner Trump, even if they're all lifelong Republicans.
Delicious! No tv. No phone. No dye. … LATER Really, the big liar's response to the eye-to-eye warning from Merchan Monday left me feeling djt had previously thought of jail only in terms of political advantage. I think the way Merchan addressed him had a sobering effect. He envisioned the inside of a jail cell for the first time.
No industrial strength hair spray, professionally applied. 🤭
No drugs.
Don’t forget the diaper detail, prison shower, and no makeup and hairdresser, Lawrence O’Donnell last week talked about how from behind you can see under whatever he has on his head, that he’s as bald as a baby’s bottom. The people who work in jails have eyes, this should be a lot of fun. Talk about him having his head up his own ass, you couldn’t make this up, nobody would believe you. 🤷♂️
An overnight stay would break down a lot of his facade.
And definitely increase his stress level. More, more.....
is hair spray allowed in nyc jails?
it has occurred to me the best punishment for the orange baboon might be not incarceration but rather a couple of hundred hours of public service.
"Look! Doesn't that man in the orange jumpsuit picking up trash by the side of the highway look like the Former President of the United States?"
As delicious as the sight of the orange turd in an orange jumpsuit picking up trash along the FDR expressway may be, Merchan doesn't have that option under the law. It's a fine or jail, nothin' else. Plus, the MAGA mouth-breathers would think he's a hero for doing unfairly imposed service by a communist judge. Poor Merchan, he really is between a turd and a hard place.
what about bronzer?
I think he totally wants to be jailed to gain more attention and rile up his base.
You may be right but my guess is he has mixed feelings. He would be placing himself voluntarily into a situation where he has no real control. That I'm sure he hates.
Very like true (Mr. Poryes comment). He is a psychopath, and psychopaths love to be portrayed as victims, according to one expert on the subject.
I read somewhere today, that his campaign fund-raisers figure that he could harvest as much as 10 million from his clueless supporters for every night he had to spend in jail.
OF COURSE Trump is angling for a (very brief, he hopes) stint in jail to rile up his faithful or, better yet--to Trump, anyway--to create such disruption as to cause a mistrial to be declared.
That is exactly what I have been thinking.
Promises promises, Lucian! I think all of us, collectively, should be summoning all of the gods to make sure that he violates the rules for the 11th time and is placed in a glass cage where we can observe him but he can’t see anyone. He would only be allowed to hear the trial. It will be very interesting to see if he can keep his mouth shut when and if Michael Cohen or Stormy Daniels testifies.
My guess is he won't be able to restrain himself. He seems to have no impulse control...that's provided by the people around him.....and he won't listen to his lawyers. Ivanka and Hope and several other used to provide that control....but they're not present any longer. I doubt that his SS detail will be adequate stand-ins.
Yesterday Jonathan Alter published an op-ed in the Washington Post arguing that incarceration was exactly what Trump wants, he will play the martyr card to the extreme, and the Secret Service might find some reason to object, and do we really want armed Secret Service agents inside a prison, so...instead of incarceration, order Trump to pick up trash in various NYC parks on days off from the courtroom. Orange jumpsuit and trash bag, and because he is too fat and out of shape to bend over, those long grabbers so he can reach the trash. The humiliation because of the public spectacle would be worse for Trump than a night in the holding cell, and the Secret Service could easily continue to do their jobs of protecting his fat ass. I love the idea, but I'd rather see him picking up trash along the West Side Highway or the BQE than in the bucolic confines of Central Park.
Obviously Donald should be booked and housed at Rikers in Open population including weight lifting and open space areas.. ok wishfull thinking about spotters at the bench press apparatus.
Sadly I'm extremely concerned that 74 plus million idiots and billionaires that have the oil and white Supremacists and religions kooks are going to make Trump president, AGAIN.
There are no gods that can save us except sane voters at the polls.
Oopsie! Sorry I dropped that 45 pound plate on your face. My bad.
On a bench press. Lack of spotter help can result on the bar bell pressing against ones Adams Apple
True, or perhaps Dumbo stood on the side of the squat rack when he was told not to, and the guy under the bar ‘accidentally’ tilted the bar while unracking it, and whoopsie, those darn plates just slid right off, right onto Dumbo Donny’s head. What a shame!
How many SS guys do you think will be right there with him?
Good point. But dont gorget the Latinos
SS = Secret Service not the German org
Ok
I don’t think Trump has the capacity to self-regulate what comes out of his mouth.
We can only hope, but I doubt the "hair"dressers and ass wipers would be allowed in jail. That reality will likely keep him muzzled. Do they even have diaper changing facilities in Rikers?
My thoughts exactly. His keepers, hair stylists, make-up appliers, diaper changers, diet coke providers, etc. would not be available. I doubt he wants that.
I don't doubt that just having his real weight become public info at booking will probably keep him in line, barring brain farts which may be inevitable for the poor sod.
not to mention his true height which IS NOT over 6 ft!
He’s never had to his entire life. Why start now?
Merchant will never sentence him to hard time for three good reasons;
First, and foremost, he is not going to hand Trump another issue on which to appeal his verdict and sentence.
Second, he knows putting Trump away will be exactly what TRump wants so he can use it in his political campaign. No need to add fuel to the fire.
Third, he can find him in contempt and simply delay the sentencing until after this trial. My bet is IF Trump is found guility he will be sentenced on multiple counts in addition to the core charges.
Merchant is doing his best to keep this train on the tracks given most unique circumstances. Let's stop fantasizing about Trump behind bars until he is.
Thank you Mr. Bell...a very sensible scenario.
Follow the latest developments in Trump's election interference case with this interactive relationship map (updated with today's May 6th posts by Lucian and Joyce Vance).
https://embed.kumu.io/42478b2f9f877d18504cb2840a560a81
Excellent
I'm probably not the only one who suspects that most of the gutless Republicans in Congress hope that Trump will be put away. I bet the smarter members of the Project 2025 cohort are wishing the same, even if it means they can't immediately institute their anti-democratic agenda. Trump is a wild, wild card. He has power over "the masses" that they can't dream of, and they're clearly deeply suspicious of anyone outside their elite circles. Since Trump is old and not exactly a picture of health, they're probably counting on him exiting stage right once they're on the way to implementing their plans.
His vanity rules all. The potential of incarceration resulting in a REAL weight check alone will be enough to keep his mouth shut.
Haven't you noticed though, he's lost some weight--I believe he may be taking a weight loss drug.
Lock 'im up, lock 'im up, lock 'im up!